Re: debian and women? from DWN #10
On March 25, 2004 11:04 pm, Monique Y. Herman wrote:
> On 2004-03-26, Leo Spalteholz penned:
> > On March 25, 2004 04:12 pm, Monique Y. Herman wrote:
> >> On 2004-03-25, s. keeling penned:
> >> > Incoming from Monique Y. Herman:
> >> >> http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/
> >> >
> >> > That one elicited about the loudest flamefest I've ever seen, in
> >> > discuss@tldp.org. If you can find that thread in their archives,
> >> > and stand to wade through it all, you might find your answers
> >> > there.
> >>
> >> I've been slowly wading through it. I honestly didn't find anything
> >> offensive in the document. I guess I should re-read it after I
> >> finish reading the flameage.
> >
> > Reading this article I found it not so much offensive as just lacking
> > some important basic facts. For example, in the section about why
> > there are so few women in technology, there are several reasons
> > listed, most of them placing the blame on men in some way. I'm not
> > saying that these reasons are not valid, but I believe there is a
> > bigger reason. Women (in general) are just not that interested in
> > technology and computers. My university has programs to encourage
> > women to enroll in engineering and women tend to be favoured for jobs
> > here but still the percentage of female engineering students is less
> > than 5%. Why is that? No idea but certainly not because they are
> > being "driven out". Every effort is made to attract them to
> > engineering and CS but there are just not that many interested.
>
> The article addressed this head-on by calling attention to the
> socialization that boys and girls undergo from a very young age. Women
> (in general) are just not encouraged to explore technology and
> computers. Did you miss the quote about how studies have found that, in
> homes with computers, the family computer is much more likely to be in
> the son's room than the daughter's? Sure, statistics can say whatever
> you want, but it's definitely true that there are still many girls being
> raised to believe that technical careers are inappropriate, unfeminine,
> etc.
I did read the quotes about societal pressures on children and how it
affects career choices for females. I just don't believe the evidence the
author presents is particularly convincing.
For instance, is the computer put into the boy's room because the parents
don't think it is appropriate for a girl or is it put there because the
boy uses is more and is more interested in playing with it?
The same goes for the argument about video games. Many video games are
marketed using sex and violence because the vast majority of the market is
male. Games have evolved in this direction because that's what the target
audience enjoys. Then again, there are also games that are marketed
towards women, such as the Sims. I really don't see how this is in the
least bit sexist.
>
> I also have to question the effectiveness of any program designed to
> drag a certain segment of the population into its fold. After seeing my
> own college's heinous attempts at recruiting black students, I can
> definitely see how such programs can misfire severely.
I can't really comment on the effectiveness of the program.. But it is run
by female professors and students, so I assume it will not be that bad.
>
> > Another thing that bothers me in the article is when specific posts on
> > mailing lists are pointed out which contain sexist remarks and used to
> > make generalizations about that community. The fact is that every
> > community has assholes. This is the consequence of a largely
> > unmoderated medium and really can't be avoided.
>
> Could you provide some quotes? I don't recall getting a negative
> impression about any community through this article, but maybe I glossed
> over something. Surely just saying that someone acted like an asshat
> one day on an IRC channel doesn't paint the whole IRC channel as
> asshats?
It was just the impression that I got but perhaps I'm being too sensitive.
For example, in the introduction,
(http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/x28.html#AEN41) she
mentions some posts to the SLUG mailing list. There were 3 polite and
helpful replies to the original post and yet all the author pointed out
was the one in bad taste.
I've been flamed and made fun of on mailing lists too but its nothing to
get really upset about. One just has to realize that there's always some
people that have no social skills or are just plain idiots.
Perhaps the difference between a male and a female being flamed is that
males tend to be more used to it. Groups of males (even if they are all
friends) tend to make fun of and insult each other regularly while females
are not as inclined to.
~leo
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