On Thursday 25 March 2004 02:10, Monique Y. Herman wrote:
Wow! I must be a throwback to the 1950's. All these answers from guys sound so politically correct to me.I just saw this in Debian Weekly News issue ten: <http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2004/debian-vote-200403/msg00067.html> I guess I just wonder. I've never found any sort of hostility or difficulty in dealing with any technically-oriented online forum; if anything, I've found that some people seem to go out of their way to respond to women....Any guys have opinions?
My remembrance of Monique's first post and my first response was that I gave my best effort at an answer, in a polite and business-like way, immediately followed by (or perhaps preceded by -- I don't recall) some sort of comment like "Oh wow! A girl and a geek! Whoo-hoo!".
In other words, I notice women. I notice them in the hallway at work. I notice them on this list. I notice them at the grocery store. And if they catch my attention (usually first and foremost in a physical way), I'll often make some sort of comment ("I really like your hair", "You have a great smile", "You need to tell your husband that men in the grocery store still notice how pretty you are and that he needs to appreciate you more."), but it's never an overly offensive (I hope) comment, like "Nice butt", or "I'd like to get to know you, if you know what I mean nudge nudge wink wink". That sort of thing is highly offensive even to me.
Now, having noticed the woman, that does not in any way diminish my respect for them. As a general rule, women are different from men, so I don't expect them to enjoy technology the way most guys do, and I do expect them to ooh and ah over the latest cosmetics magazine (http://www.marykay.com/njlove - shameless plug), and would love to get some flowers from their men (whereas most men getting flowers would think, "um, okay"). But just because women are different than men (as a general rule) doesn't make them any less smart or capable. The women in my immediate life tend to be incredibly smart.
Someone in this thread posted a link to an article (not Monique's reference), and the woman basically said women don't get involved in technology because men treat them differently (and that "differently" basically translated into rude catcalls), but I don't buy that. I do buy that women get treated differently than men (after all, I proved the point, at least in my case, a few paragraphs above). I think women aren't well-represented numerically in the technical fields because women in general don't enjoy the technical fields. It's not because they're less capable or because they get treated like this or like that; it's because they don't, in general, have the aptitude/interest, just like a male architect or a male brain surgeon might not have the aptitude/interest for the tech field.
As far as Monique's reference, I think the poster is correct that women who deal with Debian (or other male-dominated fields) will feel like the men don't think they can cut it (although that feeling is based on perception and not necessarily reality). Partly this stems from the stereotype we get from TV, etc, that men are male chauvinist pigs. But I think a lot of it stems from the fact that most men do respond to women first as women, and secondly as peers.
I can't speak for any other men, but I myself first think of Monique as a woman (and I've picked up the hints that she's married - D'oh!), and after getting past that (and to be honest, I don't know that I ever really get entirely past that), I think that she's a smart person, and she adds a lot of value to this list, and I'm glad she's here.
So flame me now for my chauvinist ways. I like the fact that women are women, and if they have a technical streak to them, it's all the better. And if I'm offensive when I deal with women, I'll apologize when I'm made aware of it, and I'll try to do better, but I guarantee that I'll always be likely to be offensive again, because I'll always notice that a woman is a woman (well, except maybe for Pat (Saturday Night Live reference from a decade or so ago)).
-- Kent, who can't seem to quit typing once he's on a roll . . .