Re: OT: Why is C so popular?
On Mon, 2003-09-01 at 13:26, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 01, 2003 at 12:53:55PM -0400, Mark Roach wrote:
[snip]
> > If you think that my goals are incorrect, or can show that it does not
> > meet my desires in some way, then tell me how. "X is better than Y" is
> > just silly. Perhaps if you gave more information on what constitutes
> > "better" we could have an actual discussion.
>
> Looking back, the reason given for setting tabstop was:
>
> | So that when we hit tab it goes to the next multiple of... 4?
>
> If you have a particular goal to accomplish, it makes sense to use
> something which accomplishes exactly that goal. The tabstop option is
> documented as controlling the "number of spaces that a <Tab> in the file
> counts for", while the softtabstop option is documented as controlling
> the "number of spaces that a <Tab> counts for while performing editing
> operations, like inserting a <Tab> or using <BS>". On the principle of
> least surprise, I feel that using an option designed to do the thing I
> want, rather than using an option designed to do something else which
> happens to do the thing I want as well, is aesthetically better.
I actually just tried sts=4 and it seems to work just fine. I can't say
that it is any better a solution (for me) other than the fact that it
takes fewer keys to enter manually. I guess I don't really care what the
intended purpose behind a feature is as long as it accomplishes my
goals.
> Also, Steve claimed that tabstop was the only way to do what he wanted
> to do. Based on what he'd said about what he wanted to do, I disagreed.
I understand now. The way your response was worded - "much better" was
the part that didn't make sense to me. After having tried both, they
seem functionally equivalent, only with sts obviously being shorter.
Taking the effect that "ts=4 et" has on files that use tabs (speaking
only in terms of python editing here) into account, I would have to say
that I would prefer those files that use tabs to be converted to use
only spaces, so it is a nice side effect. There are some cases, such as
where a file has a mix of tabs and spaces where doing so can screw stuff
up. I think in those cases, the thing to do is bite the bullet and "ts=4
et" anyway and fix it.
> As it happens, setting the tabstop option to anything other than 8 does
> irritate me when editing files containing tabs. I like to keep source
> code within 80 columns, and mismatched tabstop settings have a habit of
> screwing that up even if the file doesn't mix tabs and spaces. I've
> edited files that were perfectly readable on an 80-column display with
> tabstop=4, and were obviously intended that way, but that were
> unreadable with a default tabstop. In languages where mixing tabs and
> spaces is merely a cosmetic problem, the situation is worse yet. Leaving
> the tab character to represent its historical default of eight spaces
> simplifies everyone's life and means you can spend your life on more
> productive things than worrying about different kinds of whitespace.
I can see what you mean. That is part of why I try never to use tabs at
all, especially in python code. I think both options have their
appropriate uses, and that for python code where it is uncertain what
tabs vs spaces will mean in terms of the code operation, spaces-only is
a reasonable way to go.
Am I still way off the mark? Have I missed some other inherent evilness
in converting tabs to spaces? (Mind you, I am speaking only in reference
to python coding which is what I thought the conversation was about. if
not, my mistake)
-Mark
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