Re: Suggestion for Newbie Guide Lines
Subject: Re: Suggestion for Newbie Guide Lines
Date: Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 10:08:38PM +0100
In reply to:Patrick Kirk
Quoting Patrick Kirk(pkirk@enterprise-hr.com):
> Hi Wayne,
>
> I like the idea of less time being wasted on repeating the same answers
> again and again. The problem with the suggested guidelines is that they are
> rational and assume a calm user carefully going through an installation. No
> doubt there have been newbies to Linux like that but far more common is the
> newbie who has hosed his MBR, can't make out what switches mean and is close
> to desperation because the web site must go live in a few hours or the
> Windows user with whom the PC is shared is getting annoyed.
Well then, when in panic mode, a copy of the guid lines might have
helped, wouldn't they.
>
> For example, a week ago I was trying to configure a machine with 2 NICs as a
> firewall and found I needed to enter the command ipfwadm -I -a accept -S 0/0
> 68 -D 0/0 67 -W bootp_clients_net_if_name -P udp
> before I entered ipfwadm -F -a m -S 192.168.1.0/24 -D 0.0.0.0/0. But the
> mini-howto only tells you this afterwards. And my firewall was working so
> tightly nothing from the LAN could even ping the second NIC on the server!
> And my wife was on her way home...expecting to be able to use her PC to
> access email on return. What the -F -H does a newbie do? Panic!..write a
> desperate letter to Debian using friends and if that fails to Debian user.
Thanks for that example Patrick. I have to add the Kernel version as
a must supply, as well. I have seen people panic when ipfwadm used to
work and now doesn't, only to find out after a few exchanges, that the
kernel had just been upgraded to the 2.2.x series.
>
> Of course this question has probably been answered 20 times in the last few
> weeks. But newbies tend to get deep into trouble before realising it and
> then tend to ask for help...its the nature of learning any new complex
> system. As more and more newbies come to Debain without being house-trained
> by Red Hat or SuSE, this will happen more and more. Be happy - its a sign
> of growth!
But if the there was a well know format that questions had to, or
should, follow them a check of the Archives would probably fix the
problem 'faster' then waiting by the console Hoping for an answer.
>
> I've actually posted an answer or two to other people's questions now, so a
> payback does come. Sorry about my contribution top the 4MB. But why not
> just delete all those over a week old? Most problems on this list are
> comprehensively covered in a few hours...the longest I ever waited was a
> day. And all my questions...even when the hidden causes were hardware
> failures have been aswered in full with even links to relavent articles on
> the web.
I find that archiving the list here saves me from having to go online
to look up the answers someone else needs. I was not complaining
about the size as I have plenty of space for the lists. I was trying
to point out that, after reviewing the questions over the past few
days,months and years, that there seemed, to me to be a lot of
repeats.
Remember that this is a world wide list. I have heard from some
Europeans that thay have to pay, by the minute, for internet access.
We here in the States are somewhat fortunate in that the costs are
much less. Why should some one have to pay for mail that runs to 10+
messages, just because the requeater didn't supply enough infoormation
that might have kept the mail down to 3 or 4.
>
> Debian-user is a lively good humored group. Rarely does the RTFM command
> get suggested to even the daftest questions. I hope the fact that many of
> the problems keep recurring will not discourage the experts on the list.
> This is Linux. It is very very hard to install. Once installed, Linux just
> sits there quietly working so most people just unsubscribe after their dumb
> questions have been answered. But the contribution made by those with
> expertise who go through helping those newbies again and again is as vital
> to the widespread adoption of Linux as is the work of kernel-hackers like
> Linus, Alan Cox and all. I fear insisting on guidelines on when and how
> people should ask for help would take from this.
>
Well I don't recall insisting that these or any Guideline be 'forced'
on anyone. I know that I refrain from answering people who force me
to ask more questions just to try help them. I don't 'have' to help, I do
it because I want to. I don't like reading manual pages and
researching old mail to help someone who could have done it himself
and maybe would have if there were a standard tome that told him How
to look for info. I don't appreciate people expect me to have a crystal ball.
My thought here was to help newbie's not to force anything on them.
Maybe I went about this in the wrong way. If so, I apologize to any
that I have offended.
I will get back to programming and leave this up to the group.
> Patrick
>
> PS - the answer to what to do if the ipfwadm command have been issued in the
> wrong order is simply type apt-get install ipmasq and by some magic the
> whole darn thing works. In my case, I also had to swap the IP numbers of
> the NICs to prove that one that appeared to be fine when I typed ifconfig
> was in fact broken. Getting support with answers like this is what makes
> debian-user great. Thanks again to all those who helped.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wayne Topa <wtopa@mindspring.com>
> To: debian-user <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
> Sent: Monday, 19 July 1999 19:15
> Subject: Suggestion for Newbie Guide Lines
>
>
> >
> > Debian-user
> >
> > I was looking in my mail dir today and noticed my debian-user folder
> > exceeds 4 Meg for this month. In reviewing the question and answers
> > for the last few days, it seems like there is a lot of wasted
> > bandwidth.
> >
> > I wondered if there were Guide Lines set up for asking for answers
> > to problems, the wasted bandwidth might be reduced. I know that for
> > some on this list it costs a lot to just download this mail. I
> > believe that is one reason for the "lets switch to a news group
> > format" questions that pop up from time to time.
> >
> > I have come up with some ideas, ATTACHED, that I would like those of
> > you that answer most of the questions posed, to add to, revise,
> > comment on, or just blow away if necessary.
> >
> > So Brendon, Brian, Bob, John(s), George, Martin, Stephen, Ed, Jens,
> > Joseph, and all those of you who help everyone so much, what do you think.
> > Cluld we come up with some guide to assist us all in helping more
> > people nad save some time and bandwidth doing so?
> >
> > If this is a workable idea, then if this was posted weekly or so, it
> > might make this list even more productive thæn it already is.
> >
> > My $0.02. Flames accepted. Suggestions, Comments, Additions and/or
> > revisions even more so.
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> > --
> > Flon's Law:
> > There is not now, and never will be, a language in which it is
> > the least bit difficult to write bad programs.
> > _______________________________________________________
> > Wayne T. Topa <wtopa@mindspring.com>
> >
>
--
Crashing is the only thing windows does quickly.
_______________________________________________________
Wayne T. Topa <wtopa@mindspring.com>
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