Re: I can't beleive this
At 10:38 PM 3/18/99 +0100, Marcus Brinkmann wrote:
>On Mon, Mar 15, 1999 at 08:05:01AM +0800, ivan wrote:
>> Having overcome the partitioning issues, the installation is still a pain.
>> My experience with Linux is limited to Debian having started with the
>> frozen Bo. Since then I have had to reinstall at least 20+ times because I
>> simply didn't understand the options that were being given to me during the
>> install and thus configured the system wrongly.
>
>You don't need to reinstall to reconfigure parts of your system or single
>packages. I can hardly understand what options would require a reinstall if
>given the wrong answer (beside partitioning, I think).
Unfortunately (?) I have had a nicely working Debian system for many months
now & can't remember ! Essentially it was a case of not knowing the
software & config packages well enough at that stage to setup just the
package that was causing me trouble. I also didn't know that the how-to's
all came on the CD-ROM !
Coming from the Windows world - when something doesn't work reinstall the OS !
>
>> Again I would like to suggest that the install could be made much easier
>> with a couple of (not necessarily simple) changes. For instance, providing
>> a kernal with SB16/AWE32/AWE64 support already present and working.
>
>The kernel can't guess or detect the interrupts and ioports. AWE cards also
>require often pnp set up. You are asking for too much. However, ALSA will
>have better sound support and auto detection. The OSS Lite sound driver is
>really crap.
I can understand you saying that it is difficult but I can't understand you
saying impossible. From what I understand RH at least has working
autodetect and along with OSS it has been proved to be possible. I also
understand that Debian doesn't want something that just limps along - we
want something that is truly good. That's fine and understandable. All I
was doing was making comments on the difficulties that I feel need
resolving at some stage in the future.
I bow to your acknowledged expertise in this area :) But somewhere along
the line the kernel must make interrupt allocations and record them.
What I was suggesting was something along the lines of (for pnp):
Have a precompiled kernel available that has sound
Autoexecute isapnp
Automodify the config file with reference to the kernel list of already
allocated interrupts
Recompile just the sound module to reflect the correct interrupt/ioports as
detected by isapnp
Or maybe there's an alternative to isapnp somewhere ?
>
>> Same
>> also with PPP which most people want - if they didn't have modems they
>> wouldn't be on the net and so, probably, wouldn't have discovered Linux
>> anyway.
>
>Did you try pppconfig? It is started automatically in recent boot disks
>(since hamm, I think).
yes - great script ! It's more a case that I feel that the default kernel
should have the ppp (amongst other things) compiled in. I guess what I
want is to completely avoid the configure modules stage of the installation
unless I have particularly unusual requirements.
>
>> During the install itself there are too many packages being put on the
>> system IMHO. Why not install just ae (or joe or ee or ...) instead of all
>> of these "easy to use editors" plus emacs plus vi plus xemacs ?
>
>Are emacs and xemacs both with standard priority?
In Hamm anyway selecting the dialup user option loads just about every
editor that has been packaged !
>
>I am not sure if you complain about too many packages being "standard", or
>about too much choice. There will be a good approach for the second problem
>in apt gui (supersets or alike). The first needs explanation. VI should be
>on any Unix-like system. Emacs _is_ standard. I agree that not both emacs
>and xemacs should beinstalled automatically.
Not a complaint, a comment :)
There are IMHO too many packages installed as standard many of which I
haven't even looked at yet myself despite using Linux daily. This creates
the second problem of too much choice for the new user. As I said above, I
feel one low power easy to use editor will do just to get the new user
going same as notepad in windows. When more is needed then more can be
installed. New users are going through enough trauma already getting used
to the command line - bearing in mind that, from what I can see, most of
the newbies are Windows users who have never even used or seen any *nix
before.
Both vi and emacs are very powerful tools but have a steep learning curve.
I was almost put off of Linux in general because I thought that learning
either was too much trouble. Fortunately I discovered ae before it was too
late !
>
>> Why not,
>> if a X type setup has been chosen just install Netscape (plus maybe Lynx)
>> instead of NS, Lynx, Mozilla, W3 etc ... These sorts of examples just go
>> on and on.
>
>Netscape is not part of Debian, sorry. I would find it VERY annoying if
>selecting X would select a web browser, too. Again, I don't know what you
>exactly are complaining about (see above).
I understood that NS is available from the non-free section ?
The above browsers are ALL installed as standard from the Hamm distro
(using the dialup user option during install). This to me is very annoying
because I don't want them and it takes up more time during the installation
and more disk space needlessly. I understand that just about any package
can be de-installed quite easily but the point is that I don't see why I
should have to.
>
>> I don't know about anybody else but I keep asking myself why, if the
>> installation is as easy as the propaganda suggests, so many newbies keep
>> asking the same questions ?
>
>We can't do it right for everyone. If a certain problem is really obvious,
>sometimes someone volunteers to implement a clean solutiopn. I remember the
>time when PPP configuration questions were popping up every two days or so
>on debian-user, adn then some nice guy wrote pppconfig. I hardly see a PPP
>related question on debian-user anymore.
I agree and again full credit to the pppconfig author (John Hassler ?)
I can only speak as a user who experienced many, many difficulties and
offer ideas that I feel would make the distro easier to install and use
from that perspective.
When my C and shell scripting is up to scratch then I also will be in a
position to contribute and this, the idea of being able to contribute, is
the biggest single reason that I persevere with Linux.
In the meantime I do not complain (and sorry if it seems like that) I want
to make what I hope are useful comments for those people skilled enough to
translate ideas to practice.
>
>> PS. I am aware that installing an OS is not a little thing but that comment
>> sums up how I felt. BTW, the reason I perservere now with Linux is that I
>> can see the potential and still refuse to be beaten. I figure if even one
>> other person can make the whole thing work then so can I. I will not stop
>> until I win.
>
>That's the right attitude! Seriously: There is room for improvement, but
>some things that look like small steps are really big steps. They will be
>made, but we'll need some time.
I understand some of the difficulties and the time requirements. I'm not
complaining - see above.
>
>I think people are expecting too much from Linux. Okay, we have hundreds and
>thousands of developers, but everyone doing it voluntarily and in spare time
>(well, some are paid, but they are the exceptions).
>
>Then, Linux is only 5 or 6 years old (the kernel). There is older software,
>too (GNU), but nevertheless, it a is surprisingly short time. Compare this
>with MS Windows, who didn't manage to get a stable operating system at all
>after years of $$$ development.
Agreed.
>
>And then, when MS releases BS, people live with it. In Linux, everyone wants
>the most perfect solution right now. That's okay, it is motivating, but only
>if it is mentioned in an ebcouraging way.
It is only by people outside the development community making suggestions
that the developers can be aware of the "wish list" that these people have.
I would hope that no-one expects volunteers to drop everything to try to
satisfy a difficult or impossible request immediately or sooner but surely
even the impossible requests/suggestions/ideas are all grist for the
development mill ?
Again let me emphasise that I am not complaining - I would like these
comments and any others that I make to be taken as constructive criticism.
If I had the coding skills I would implement the ideas myself and in time I
will.
Ivan.
>
>Thanks,
>Marcus
>
>
>--
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