Re: Distributing a procmail filter (was: Re: splitting up the...)
On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Paul Wade wrote:
>
> The word 'newbie' just plain sucks, but why not use it anyway? We can even
> think of ways to 'haze' them until they are considered part of the elite!
>
> I use procmail to meet my needs, not because it is required. Some
> unfortunate user who is trying to install Debian because we told him it
> was better than slackware doesn't have ppp working. He sends mail to a
> debian list using his mother's palmtop (windows-CE) or webTV. Obviously he
> needs help so he can get his personal hardware operational. Why not keep
> it simple? He sends mail to debian-help and checks his pop3 mailbox to see
> whether the cavalry will come to his rescue or not.
>
> After we get him up and running, he can participate in other discussions
> and hear about the pros and cons of emacs, which mta to use, the perfect
> procmail setup, and the like.
This makes the most sense to me. I still think that keeping
debian-user as the "newbie/help" list and moving the noise
is the better way to go, but as long as people have a
simple, straight forward channel, I guess it doesn't matter.
I can just envision the confusion it would cause to change
it though. It seems less obtrusive to move the noise to
debian-{talk,discussion,noise,nonsense,whatever}.
On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Branden Mitchel wrote:
> [ I'm starting to think we need another list for this thread. ]
>
> I believe you have mis-read what I have said. I'm personally in favor of
> a debian newbie. I'm working on a debian news, and will post an example
> as a request for comments by the end of this week. I don't want 500
> messages per day that I have to sort through with procmail. The
> reference to procmail that I was making was to have experienced users
> that wanted to supscribe to all list automatically filter out cross
> post. The theory that splitting up the splitting up the
> mailing list
> into 2 will actually result in 2/3 the original mail (1/3 on each), not
> 4/3 (2/3 on each) that would happen if crosspost were not filtered out.
I think I'm still mis-reading this. Do you mean the lists
would get filtered and cross postings filtered out? How
would this work? Which list would have precedence? This
sounds even more confusing. Either the mail would get
filtered before it got redistributed on the lists, or it
would get filtered after it went out (by us, the recipients
-- see the previous discussion on why this is bad.)
>
> Please give me a counter example not to want debian-newbie:
> 1) the name isn't that bad, they've used it on the linux list.
Because there is already debian-user for this purpose. If I
go to the library to read in the reading room, but some loud
kids go there to dance and sing, the kids should be asked
to dance and sing at a more suitable location. Your
suggesting the reading room be renamed the dance hall and us
readers should go find a new place to read. We'd better
hope some books show up too, or it may be a dull day at the
new reading room (was library).
> 2) volume will decrease if cross post are filtered out.
This is the part we keep missing eachother on. Who does the
filtering? The newbies needing help, but can't get it
because they're overwhelmed by the volume, noise, etc? The
list maintainer before redistribution (see above questions)?
> 3) newbies get a low volume list (at least for a while, linux-newbie got
> pretty bad).
I'm not convinced newbies will utilize such a list
exclusively. What will we tell newbies who don't know
better and send mail to debian-user? Will we say "go to the
right list you newbie"? Imagine the noise this will
generate, not to mention the fact that this is rude. Its
better to say "go to discussion list with this noise so the
new users can get a word in edge-wise". In such a case the
goal is not to build up a really good quiet list (think
about that for a minute), but rather to quiet the already
established (and advertised) list by offloading noise onto a
list that we don't need to care about the verbosity level
on.
> 4) gurus get a low volume list, no more scanning through newbie stuff.
I think the "gurus" subscribed to debian-user are usually
more than happy to scan through newbie stuff. The problem
is they have to work too hard to pull the signal from the
noise as it stands now.
> 5) newbies know where to post. When you start asking questions the
> newbies can't answer (or any of the gurus that follow deb-newbie), you
> move on to debian-user.
This isn't what I thought debian's support structure was
about. Please re-evaluate this.
>
> Why I don't like question, reply to sender, summary format:
> 1) some questions need to be discussed in public.
> 2) newbies will still ask questions, and this format will just confuse them.
> 3) some don't post summaries.
>
> Why I don't like the topics in the subject lines:
> 1) you still have to put up with a load of messages per day (as Richard
> pointed out).
and numerous others ...
> 2) newbies can easially set up filters to deal with this volume.
Again with the filters and the newbies! No wonder I keep
getting the "wrong" idea.
On a side note, I think we should call newbies "dave"
and gurus "liza" from now on. ;)
You can call me "heathcoat", but I probably won't know your
talking to me ;)
Cheers,
--
"Until we extend the circle of our compassion to all living
things, we will not ourselves find peace" -Albert Schweitzer
Richard G. Roberto
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