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X11 GUI Support (was Re: X11 bashing)


Well, good discussion everyone, a pleasure to read it.  

The lacks of weel integrated GUI tools in X is volunteers but who knows a
Windows System that run on most Unix System (including Linux, A/UX,
FreeBSD, AIX, Sun, WindowsNT) and are distributed (a very painful, hard to
maintain but powerful caracteristic)? 

X aren't to be change. It has to be complete with a mostly standard
toolkit for GUI programmers. That's what the caracteristics I would like
to find in this toolkit and if some already exist who has all those, it
will be a good thing if Debian support it :

1) Open Free Standard. 
That means you can develop something absolutely free from it, with no
restriction! It means too that, with all the standard already existing, I
don't think we have to reinvent the wheel (to use a French expression that
I don't know if I can translate ;). Other advantage of Open Standard is
that you can ease software develop on other machine/OS and easily put it
on Linux, a most performing system. That's help too to reduce the number
of libraries on one system. X are already big enough!

2) Ease of development and maintainance.
Object oriented? Not necessarely. Has someone says, C is standard and
mostly use for almost software but Objects are supposed to be easier and
C++ and Objective-C support C very well.

3) Good integration
Why need a pretty GUI if we can't cut&paste between each windows. CORBA,
OLE, etc. are some standard for IPC but first, each process has to know
basically how to communicate between each other.
4) User configurable
Because we prefered to (don't) have a big dock on the right side of us 13"
monitor, we prefered (not) to have that or this in the pop-up root menu,
we (don't) want a tool bar, a small (large) grey (blue) bordure on us
windows and one (three) button to close (resize, quit) the window in its
upper right corner.

5) Freeness
Need to discuss about it?

Well, that's the main three I can extract from the discussion... I don't
want to go further because it can be subversive. Let's see now the
different solutions already purpose.

1) Already an open standard mainly free altought that the only free
version of the libraries are still in beta development.
2) Not yet ease to develop but a good object wrapper (like Object Windows
for the WinAPI; I don't think that MFC are good objects... their have lot
of bad scheme in it) can really ease the process and use the same library.
But that can be apply to almost everything. Motif aren't a kind of wrapper
around Xlib, is it?
3) Permit it in an entirely Motif interface.
3) Not as well as I would like but can be.
4) see 1) :)

1) See Motif 1)...
2) Is Objective-C... that's a plus and a weakness. A plus because
Objective C are a pretty well done Object language and permit some real
object oriented (loose binding) development. Weak because you are mainly
restrict to write it in this language, who aren't well supported by most
entreprise. But may be I'm wrong here. If someone can correct me :)
3) That's the goal of NextStep and the main domain of Jacob's expertise.
4) Well, GNUStep defined their own goal to be more open and
configurable then NextStep already was. It can be good thing.
5) That's GNU stuff :)

JAVA Desktop (surprised?):
1) Java are a well known standard, although young.
2) Never see a easiest and as powerful language than Java. It's supported
integration of C function and can be exported in C programs. Like GNUStep,
you are dependant of a Java Workspace for a well integrated system.
Another point, Linux dis you would like to see Corel Suite running on a
Linux Box? That can be possible.
3) Well done.
4) Still to be implemented but the java-VM are just going out the box...
It can be really improved.
5) Java are kind of free. I don't think the Java license are too mush
restrictive and avoid the GPL...


I don't talk about V++, KDE or QT cause I don't know it well... For
myself, the Java Desktop are my own project then I'm working on it
(Learning Java are good for job, although I'm studying in `electrical'
engineering.. :).  If some `autonomous volunteer' want to contrib. I'll be
happy to heard about you :). 

Pleasure to read your replies to this mail.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 Linux - because reboots are for hardware upgrades 
           -- Edwin Huffstutler <ehuff@sedona.intel.com> -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Fabien Ninoles aka Baffouille       || Running Debian-Linux
Ninf01@gel.usherb.ca                || Lover of MOO, mountains, 
http://www-edu.gel.usherb.ca/ninf01 || poetry and Freedom.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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