Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging

I happen to be subscribed here, so figured I'd comment :)

FWIW I think the way the discussions are going... really in both locations.. is needlessly taking shots at each other.

I've commented on discuss.python.org, but figured I'd repeat myself here.

I think the way these discussions devolve into each "side" taking shots at each other and arguing over nonsense that doesn't matter does everyone a disservice.

The facts of the matter, as far as I can tell:

- Distributors ship Python and a number of people find great value in that and it works great or at least fine for them.

- A number of users have needs or wants that are not well served by the Python that distributors ship, for one reason or another.

People in either of those groups sniping at each other for wanting the "wrong" things is completely unproductive.

It's probably "fine" if Python.org wants to ship a linux binary, I suspect it'll have very little impact on distributors of Python (and might even make things better-- since some of the problems flow from an impedance mismatch, and it provides a different escape hatch to point people towards if the distro Python doesn't suit their needs).

On 5/26/2024 9:39:25 AM, Stefano Rivera <stefanor@debian.org> wrote:
Hi Ian (2024.05.26_01:33:09_+0000)
> I am puzzled about some of the responses there, how can anyone expect to
> randomly update packages on the system using pip and not have it go wrong
> on any distribution? This is why things like pipenv exist.

People don't understand that stuff until they dig to the details. And
even then, sometimes they forget and/or assume we have the resources to
massively revamp our stack.

There are long-standing grievances here (see tiran's gist for example).
I have very little experience with Fedora/RH, but from their grumbling,
I assume they solve some problems for developers that we don't:

1. It appears that multiple versions of cPython are trivially available.
Each version has its own site-packages.
2. Their python packaging is more developer-centric than user-centric.
More modules included in the install.

We're pretty constrained on 1 by the debian security team policy. But
maybe there is discussion room there for non-supported Pythons?

We have taken steps to improve 2 by adding the python3-full package.

I could see a long term strategy for having a system-python package that
provides a python3 binary used by Debian packages that need Python. And
a separate python package for developers that installs all the bells and
whistles immediately.

Achieving this would require reorganizing the way we package almost all
Python, and I don't think we have the interest and resources to do that.

If pyenv was packaged in Debian (ITP #978149) it would probably be great
for new Python developers on Debian.

Not sure what other small tactical steps we could take?

> > Perhaps someone else wants to comment on that conversation

Replied. I've engaged with these guys on this stuff before. Let's see
where it goes...

Stefano

--
Stefano Rivera
http://tumbleweed.org.za/
+1 415 683 3272