Re: PyCon 2013 -- tentative title/abstract/outline -- feedback plz
On Thursday 27 September 2012 17:50:04 Paul Tagliamonte wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 08:51:37AM -0400, Yaroslav Halchenko wrote:
> > not a single comment... bad... I guess I need to work on the text
> > more if even hardcore Debian people do not feel 'moved' ;-)
>
> Well, i'll give my 2c as a pythonista and a Debian-folk
I was going to give some feedback more as the kind of person who has gone to
Python conferences, and certainly, if you want a native speaker to give
feedback on the phrasing of your proposal, I'd be happy to make some
suggestions.
[...]
> I can see this becoming a flamefest.
>
> Most "hardcore" pythonistas (and the types to be at PyCon) refuse to
> allow apt to install libs globally, and use virtualenv(wrapper) to
> isolate deps for a few reasons -- the big ones being:
>
> - more "up to date"
> - isolates dependency hell
>
> which (frankly) apt-get / Debian stable can't really address. Sometimes
> Python packages in sid are out of date as well.
Python packaging has become somewhat insular over the years with
Python-centric solutions that work across different systems rather than
solutions that work well with the rest of the software on particular systems.
However, people appear to like things like virtualenv, especially the Web
crowd that makes up a lot of the audience at events like this, because it
lets them set up relatively cheap configurations for separate Web
applications or for experimenting.
I have advocated solutions based on fakechrooted debootstrapped installations
if only because you can manage the libraries below the Python modules and
extensions as well as the stuff that supports things like distutils and
setuptools. However, the people who can change this situation don't see the
need or the point: it's either "but I have root!" or "they can always build
from source!" No wonder people use stuff like virtualenv instead. It is in
this area where I feel that the Debian community could do more to meet others
half-way.
> People don't care about API stability or anything like that, so I think
> you might have to try to frame this in a way that doesn't provoke a
> virtualenv-vs-apt battle -- because, frankly, neither side will win and
> it'll just become a bit murky.
>
> I'd be happy to help you prepare / do more interactive work with folks
> at PyCon (I should likely be there) :)
The one case that many language-focused groups ignore, and where distributions
do well, is the case where a range of different technologies needs to be
managed and where administrators just wouldn't be able to keep up with Python
eggs, Ruby gems, CPAN, and the language-specific technology of the week.
Persuading the Python community to feed packages into Debian so that they
become a safer choice for people who routinely use or know other technologies
is definitely a worthwhile cause.
Paul
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