Re: Censorship in Debian
On 20/12/18 23:46, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> writes:
>
>> and I reply with the strongest possible evidence, personal experience
>> and scientific research.
> You decided to distort a political issue that many of us feel strongly
> about to attack a policy around what to republish in project-owned forums,
> which is only on a continuum with that issue if you look for it with a
> telescope. You did this in a way designed to provoke strong feelings and
> create moral absolutes rather than start a conversation, and you did this
> knowing full well that you were attacking a specific team inside Debian
> composed, like all Debian teams, of overworked volunteer members. You did
Please don't misrepresent me like that. I am not calling on anybody to
attack any team, I'm calling on people to be assertive in defending
Norbert and other individuals who have been singled out.
> this without the slightest attempt to extend an assumption of good will or
> allow for the possibility there are further things going on that you don't
> know about, and you did so with such pathetically sloppy and incomplete
The fact that people don't know about certain things going on suggests
the project leadership is deviating from the social contract. Let's get
the policy about Planet in the open or choose to have two Planets, e.g.
"planet-curated.debian.org" and "planet-uncensored.debian.org" and each
person can choose which one they want to read.
> research that even *I* know you are leaving out substantial background,
> and I haven't been trying to follow this saga.
>
> In other words, you immediately turned the temperature up as high as you
> could go and called on other people to attack your fellow Debian
> developers on the grounds that their work is a violation of UN-recognized
> human rights (!!).
Other people have chosen to turn up the temperature. I felt my post was
both restrained and lukewarm in comparison.
I can see that this has been both shocking and surprising to some people
and I sincerely regret that. I would ask you to consider it from my
point of view and from some of the abusive communications I have
received recently, they are the things that have established my frame or
reference right now.
>
> That you cannot understand how completely absurd this is means that it is
> futile to try to argue this point with you on the merits.
>
> There *is* an underlying project debate here that is a real debate, namely
> the rules for participation and republication in project forums. I think
> it's a debate we've had to the point of absurdity, but I'm not horribly
> surprised that people want to still have it, and if that had been all your
> message had been, I would have sit on my hands and not added to the noise.
>
> But you saw an opportunity to artificially strengthen your debate stance
> by comparing the Debian anti-harassment team to assassins (!!) and you
> seem completely oblivious to why this is utterly unacceptable in
> collective discussion within a project of colleagues, peers, and friends.
Without going into detail, the actions of certain figures over the last
3 months are in no way comparable to those of colleagues, peers or
friends. The people who initiated those communications have set the
tone for this debate through their arrogance, impatience and ego, not me.
> I have no idea personally what set off Norbert's removal from Planet
> Debian. When I said irrespective of the merits of your argument, I really
> meant that. But *this* bothers me far more: this kind of brutal approach
> to Debian politics is hostile, nasty, and deeply hurtful to the project.
ditto for the messages certain people have sent to me and other volunteers.
Given my own personal circumstances this year, "deeply hurtful" is very
much an understatement when assessing certain communications I received,
especially considering their timing.
> If you want to have a debate about the decision of a team in Debian, you
> have an obligation to the project to conduct that debate with a certain
> basic level of mutual respect. Asking you to not compare your fellow
> project members to assassins does not seem like a high bar! If you aren't
The bar has been taken even lower than you think and I am not the one
who put it there.
It is in our social contract that we do not hide our problems but I
would ask people to forgive me for not laying out the sheer brutality of
it in all it's gory detail right now. Doing so would compromise the
privacy of multiple people outside the project.
> going to do that, I for one am quite happy to make this argument about
> *your* behavior, which was appalling and utterly toxic to supporting the
> community of a volunteer collective project.
Please don't make this personal. Notice I didn't choose to name people
individually.
>> Having been rear ended by a utility van, thrown off a motorbike half way
>> across a roundabout and having also received abusive and threatening
>> messages from people within the Debian community, I feel that the
>> physical pain caused by the latter was more than the former. Those
>> people should be ashamed of themselves.
> Yeah, no shit. Your lack of awareness that *you* are that person who
> should be ashamed of yourself because that's what *you* just did is
> honestly mind-blowing.
>
My message was to repudiate censorship and support Norbert, a call for
people to stand up is not the same as a call for people to abuse and
threaten any team in Debian. I sincerely hope that people are assertive
about the facts and principles and not abusive in their responses.
As I said, my frame of reference right now has been largely established
by the communications I received from other people.
Regards,
Daniel
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