Re: Expulsion process: Sven Luther (aka: why I'm now convinced he needs therapy)
On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 12:58:34PM +0200, Erich Schubert wrote:
> Hello Sven,
> > 1) I am very curious about your medical degree, and how you managed to
> > diagnostic a mental disorder. Does this not strike you as a bit haughty ?
> No, I'm very clearly saying that I'm not qualified to do such as
> diagnosis, but that I seriously recommend to have a professional check.
> And that we're not qualified or capable of properly handling this.
> I *DO* feel like I'm facing a problem I *CAN'T* handle, you know.
> > 2) You know, don't you think it is possible, between friends, collegues,
> > whatever, to openly tell the other what he thinks about how the other acted,
> > without this making anyone "the arch ennemy" or whatever ?
> That's what I tried, in fact.
> When asked by you why I supported the expulsion procedure, I tried to
> explain it, but immediately became a "bully stoning the scapegoat" for
> you. Though I had not been openly attacking you all the time, but this
> was in an informal, private one-to-one communication on IRC...
> So that was apparently not possible to talk to you openly about my
> impression on these issues.
I am now very curious how you jump from me telling you what i believe into
this "arch ennemy" discourse. Do you believe you would have done the same
thing if it had been in real live ?
Also, you said it was a private one-to-ine communication on irc, and suddenly
i see it mirrored in a full-of-accusation mail on -private, followed shortly
by the DAMs decision, who altough they did not expulse me, could just as well
have done so.
> > 3) It is acts like yours here, which cause he project harm, not what i have
> > done, especially as i admit i mis-behaved last year, in big part because i
> > was under personal distress, but also because i was under constant
> > agression. But you purposeful go from a simple discussion you don't like,
> Actually, you stopped talking to me yesterday, leaving me with the
> impression that your behavior is completely unpredictable (and thus
I damn went to sleep, which my wife was already asking me to do since a few
minutes. See, how you forgot that i am a human being, with a life outside
debian too ?
> I understand that you have been trying hard the last few months to cause
> distress, and I respect that. But march showed that it wasn't enough. A
> couple of people have suggested to contact a psychotherapist, maybe that
> can really help, and we can work together in a year again.
Right. And do you not see how hurting and arrogant you are in saying that. You
don't even try to understand what happened, and you dismiss it as the raving
of a lunatic, instead of trying to understand the reasons behind it. The
problem is not with me, or any psychiatric help i can get, the problem is with
Debian, and the behaviour of some of the DDs involved in this mess, and also
to those like you, who have let it happen.
A year won't help, the underlying problem has not been fixed, in fact, the
other party in this mess has just been conforted in their abject behaviour, so
if i where to come back, it would only be to a repetition of what happened
this last year, indepentently of how well i behaved.
> > So, i wonder how you can expect that i just ignore this issue, while there has
> > still been no reply from the DAMs on my expulsion, and i have been virtually
> > shut-off of any participation in debian.
> They have reached a conclusion now, and IMHO the outcome is actually one
> of the best for you: a NO-OP wasn't an option (the Debian project is
> still somewhat dazzled by this infighting!), and I don't see many other
> options than temporarily suspending you, except maybe temporarily
> suspending 10-100 other people as well (including maybe even myself, and
> it wouldn't really change things for you, just punish others as well).
A strong condemnation of what the expulsers tried to do, followed by an action
toward the other party to actually start trying to solve the issue, instead of
of rejecting every attempt at compromise and reconciliation i have made since
over a year, and finally a strong condemnation of the lousy job Anthony Towns
and Steve Mcyntire did over the mediation, and pointing out the
responsabilities they have in this.
If my suspension would have been accompanied by that, maybe it would have been
acceptable, but things being like they are, i am the convenient scapegoat, and
sacrificiable, so you all get your tranquility again.
> So: they have NOT EXPULSED YOU. They didn't take this huge chance of
> actually kicking you out of the project. To me, this gives the
Yeah, right, sorry, but no, they just give themselves good concience, but the
result is the same.
> impression of wanting things to get sorted out somehow, not of trying to
> force you out of the project. They *could* have done that!
> Nor have I heard anyone complain that they should have acted differently
> (that is, that they should have kicked you out). Everybody seems to
> think that you can change enough within a year to allow working together
You have now.
> I'm not going to reply to any mail on this subject again (at least I'm
> trying not to). The DAM have reached a conclusion, and it's now time to
> move on, to work on Debian (or not) and to not let the project be harmed
> anymore by this kind of discussion and email exchanges. There were
> already a few hundred mails too many written on this subject.
Except myself, who am left bloody on the roadside to die, right ?
> Have a good day, and I hope to see you again in a year.
How can you expect me to have a good day with this ? You are really naive
about judging human behaviour, are you not ?