Re: http://wiki.debian.org/SvenLutherAndDI (Was: Open Letter to Anthony Towns about the d-i mediation ...)
Can we take this privately next time ?
On Tue, Oct 31, 2006 at 10:31:32PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 31, 2006 at 10:54:38PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> > > Surely we have passed this point a month or two ago. We are wasting
> > > everyone's time.
> > >
> > > Sven, please just live and let live.
> > John, what do you think this is all about ? I would be very very happy to
> > follow this advice, this is indeed my most express wish, but the sad truth is
> > that Frans is the one who is unable to 'live and let live'.
> Sven, it doesn't matter. It truly doesn't.
> If he says an insult, please just ignore it.
> If he rejects your patch, please just ignore it.
> If he keeps you out of d-i, please just ignore it.
And if he hurts the powerpc users with these actions ?
Furthermore, my professional and thus personal live is directly affected by this
issue, so ...
> Please, think about what's best for the project.
I think, and i remember my engagement on the social contract, how i would put
freee software and our users as my top priorities. The way things currently
stand hurts our users, and measuring and comparing things, i trully believe
that you and everyone other can assuredly support a few mails, for the best of
Furthermore, if more people had steped in so many month ago instead of
ignoring this, and if the DPL had been a better mediator, this would have been
fixed at the latest in early june, and the project would have spared a lot of
disagrement, and debian would be much better off for it (well, people would
probably have spent more time flaming on assorted other stuff, but for me at
least i would have done more debian work).
> Do you think you raise other developers' opinions of you by continuing
> to raise these old issues? My opinion of you keeps going lower and
> lower each time you do it. Right now, I would pretty much reject an
> offer from you to help me -- with anything -- immediately, on the
> grounds that working with you is too much effort to benefit me.
Is it too much effort ? For a few mails you can easily ignore if you wanted ?
Really, i think there is something really really sick in debian, when writing
mails can be considered as the ultimate offense. Please think about it.
> You aren't accomplishing anything for Debian with this thread. You
> probably know that this thread isn't going to change people's minds
Well, it will not be my fault, i have written those 2 open letters in the most
reasonable way i could think of, i have written the wiki page on suggestions
given to me on the irc channels, andin the most positive way i could think of.
Yes, i expect people to change their minds on that, i think that is only fair,
and i have high hopes on the fairness of the debian developpers.
> now. You need to accept that life is the way it is, that life is not
> fair, and that this is the way things are. It's not the first time
> someone has been excluded from a free software project, and it's not
> the last.
Well, yes, but d-i is not just any project, d-i is a debian sub-project, and
part of debian. So, i question the right of the d-i leadership, or rather
frans, to excude me.
I do good work, i have played by the rules, i have the best interest of our
users and debian in mind. Keeping me excluded is *NOT* for the best of debian,
and since the DPL totally failed to mediate, and left us in this mess, and is
silent despite my repeated calls, what other issue is left to me ?
You know, if the DPL doesn't step in, i am seriously thinking that i will go
as far as doing an official recall of him, not only because of this, but
because he has mostly been lying to us.
> As Ted T'so pointed out in another thread, people have gotten rich off
> his work and he hasn't seen much from it. It's not fair, but he still
> works on Linux.
> One of my GRs was never voted on becuase the Debian secretary (NOT
> Manoj) at the time was AWOL. That was annoying, maybe unfair, but you
> don't see me still bringing it up 6 years later (except as an example
> of how to let go!) I still believe -- very deeply -- that I was
> right, and that Debian still follows the wrong path.
Because you are not still suffering from it in your daily debian activities,
and because you don't see our users being hurt by it. I rather strongly
believe that if these where the case, you would act as me.
> If you think you can do d-i better, then fork it, and be silent until
> you have written your better version. Let people look at it, accept
> or reject it on its merits, and then accept whatever happens, even if
> you don't like it.
Yeah, this has been the advice others have given me. I don't think this would
be best for the project, and my course of action has been to work within the
constraints the DPL set, because i wanted to regain official access.
> > Yeah, and since many folk have the same kind of opinion as you, we are having
> > this conversation months after the issue could have been solved.
> That fact that the conversation exists does not make it beneficial for
> the project.
No, but the alternative is worse.
> You need to forgive Frans and d-i for whatever you think they did to
*NO*, what *FRANS* is still doing on a daily basis.
> We all need to know when to just drop something.
Yep, but when you are constantly reminded of it ?
> Please, do it now.
Did you read what i wrote, i am asking *FRANS* to forget about what i may have
done months ago, while i was under personal distress and comprehensively
unhinged. Why don't you publicly write to frans and say him, please, this has
been months ago, let go, and allow sven to work on d-i unhingered ?
If you give me a good answer to this one, i will consider your advice.