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Re: Apple vs IBM



I think you hit the nail on the head here, Leandro.

I just feel I need to add that my earlier comments about mainframes
may have only confused the matter more, because IBM itself seems to
have mixed up many previously unambiguous naming conventions in
recent years. Of the 8-way system I referred to, the aspects that
make it _resemble_ a mainframe are its high availability, scalability
and last but certainly not least the extreme service level IBM sells
with it. The availability of compatible workstations after seven to
eight years only underlines the third aspect even more, as does the
high price you pay for that workstation.


   Jeroen


On 16 Jul 2003 at 10:59, Leandro Guimarães Faria Corse wrote:

> Em Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:15:59 +0800, debia escreveu:
>
> >> In that case, you simply missed the point. This is a workstation, and
> >> a mainframe multiprocessor configuration with up to eight such
> >> processors is not a myth: a quick search reveals a 1998 model with 8
> >
> > I know they exist, they still do, but that's back then my Pentium II was
> > current, and by my reckoning the P II is a much more powerful CPU than
> > the 604e.
>
> 	You are again focusing on the CPU, ignoring the real history of these
> systems: mirroring a production environment for development and bug
> fixing, and bandwith, reliability, support.
>
>
> > I think the strong point on that machine is the memory bandwidth. Note
> > that it's a server, not a workstation, though with eight CPUs it would
> > have been quite good at CPU-intensive work in its day.
> >
> > However, its day (for that) was eight years ago.
>
> 	Now suppose you have assembly code -- some IBM shops do.  You need to add
> a machine to a farm.  Do you spend in testing it for a new CPU, or you
> just get the better machine your money can buy but yet on the same
> architecture?
>
> 	I don't
>
>
> >> The RS/6000 43P Model 150 is also available as an entry level server
> >> <http://www-
> >> 132.ibm.com/content/home/store_IBMPublicUSA/en_US/eServer/pSe
> >> ries/entry/43P150.html>, by the way.
> >
> > I missed the server, I was looking for the machine nearest the Mac.
>
> 	You looked the wrong place... no blame, I also did the same mistake!
> Wanted a competitive offer for a CHF 5K x86 server, got a CHF 50K IBM
> offer...
>
>
> > I used to be a system programmer and an applications, working with IBM
> > mainframes. Our terminals were 3270-family screens, 80 characters wide
> > and varying depths. When I had a PC on my desk, I used software to
> > emulate 3270 terminals.
>
> 	I had what were called RIMA cards, they plugged into 3270 controllers!
> The only way to communicate with the host PC was screen scraping...
>
>
> > We logged onto MVS or VM (I never used VSE, but it has comparable
> > tools), and all source code editing, program compilation and execution
> > was done on the mainframe.
>
> 	Then the floor energy went off... when power returned, I had lost only
> two or three characters I've been typing!
>
>
> > The iSeries (formerly AS/400) computers are described by IBM as
> > "mid-range" and evolved from IBM's minicomputers, System/3,
> > System/3{3,6,8} etc. These machines ordinarily run OS/400.
>
> 	Today they run POWER too...
>
>
> > I think the pSeries evolved from what IBM termed its scientific
> > computers: certainly from computers called "RS/6000" and which
> > originally conformed to IBM's Microchannel Architecture - the same bus
> > IBM used for its PS/2 personal computers.
>
> 	Yes, in fact RS/6000 are still available.
>
> 	I wonder why IBM renamed everything.  I can't make any sense out of
> [ipze]Series, I always have to translate them either to their former names
> or to some descriptive appelation.
>
>
> > With the pSeries I have no experience, but the PPC 604E doesn't seem a
> > good choice for compiling programs. Tried compiling a Linux kernel or
> > XFree on once recently?
>
> 	Typically programs compiled in-house are much more lightweight than Linux
> or XFree... and even in compiling, bus bandwidth and memory speed do
> count, so it is not such a feeble system as you seem to presume by looking
> at CPU only.
>
>
> > A Power4 CPU may well be useful for that role. I prefer a
> > better-performing system because I don't see sense in users waiting for
> > its reponses.
>
> 	That's why I'd rather have a X hostfarm-and-terminals configuration!
>
> 	But anyway, these machines are multitasking, not your usual MS W32
> stuff... it is perfectly possible to compile a program while revising
> another, debugging or even doing office stuff -- they won't run MS Office
> unless we're talking MS WTS, but they will do email and such.
>
>
> > tools, maybe some commercial source-code tools and on it goes. Sharing a
> > high-end system, using Xterminals makes a lot of sense.
>
> 	Yes!  Yes!  :-)
>
>
> > BTW, someone said AIX doesn't run on an Apple. Someone once told me he'd
> > tried it to see whether it would. His report, it did.
>
> 	URLs?
>
>
> >> A workstation with a relatively ancient CPU such as the 604e can now
> >> only be sold (for that much money) because it is essential to the
> >> process of deploying applications to mainframes using the same 604e
> >> processors, which have been in use now for many years (since 1995?),
> >> and as mainframes go, may be in use for another ten to twenty years.
> >> Not for their performance, but for their availability and
> >> irreplaceability.
> >
> > I don't find the argument convincing. Can I not build on a high-end
> > pSeries, targetting one with a 604e?
>
> 	Yes, but are the same versions of the same libraries available for these
> quite different processors?  Remember, they have instructions in common,
> but not all, one being a POWER4 and the other a PowerPC.  And these
> mainframe environments have sometime hand-crafted assembly code created to
> do exactly what is needed consuming as few resources as possible.
>
>
> --
>  _
> / \  Leandro Guimarães Faria Corsetti Dutra     +41 (21) 648 11 34
> \ /  http://br.geocities.com./lgcdutra/         +41 (78) 778 11 34
> / \  Responda à lista, não a mim diretamente!   +55 (11) 5686 2219
> Dê-me nota se te ajudei:   http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=leandro
>
>
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