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Re: Proposal for collaborative maintenance of packages

On Thu, 2005-12-29 at 16:54 +0200, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> I'm going to dip my spoon into this soup, because I dislike soup, and
> this one especially irks me.


> I'm sorry, are you trying to tell me what my goal is? 

Certainly not, why would you think that?

> My goal certainly
> is not to out-compete Microsoft. I do not accept your definition of
> success. 

I didn't ask you too. I *asked*: "Outcome for personal pleasure?"
because the *original* writer spoke of the goals of the project.

> I'm not a Debian developer to gain market share, or play other
> popularity games. I am a Debian developer because it is fun, and also
> because the end result is an operating system I like using.

That's a perfectly fair reason.

> There are at least a thousand people working on Debian. Everyone has
> their own motivation, and the only common goal we have, the goal of the
> Debian project, is to create a free operating system. 

That clearly isn't a current goal .. since it has already
been achieved. Perhaps this is part of the problem.

> You have talked about feelings, how it feels like to not be able to
> upload directly to the Debian archive. Let me say something about how it
> feels like when outsiders start ranting about what I as a DD must do
> because they want it. It feels bad. I feel exploited. I feel treated
> like a resource, in the worst tradition of Henry Ford. It sucks out the
> fun of working on Debian.


And please don't describe a discussion as a rant.
I'm an outsider, I'm giving my impression of the process
to insiders that cannot see what I do from the outside
(as both a user and software developer).

It is PRECISELY my problem that I do NOT want to pressure the DD who
has so kindly agreed to sponsor my package .. and as I mentioned
also is the maintainer AND joined the project.

I am trying to improve the situation .. for HIM. So he doesn't
feel he's letting me down.

It is PRECISELY my problem that I know of several packages that
I think should be in Debian .. some already with Debian packages
made .. and offer some suggestions why this is.

In the case of some of those packages which are not yet Debianised,
as I mentioned I might even consider doing it myself .. and I'm
saying what is putting me off the most ..

It isn't the work involved getting the scripts right .. its
the fact I have to hassle someone into uploading it.

> It is not productive at all for you to tell people that you don't want
> to do more than a little work to have your software in Debian and
> therefore everyone else should do much more work, 

I did not say that. On the contrary ..

> Now, I'm all for making it easy to contribute to Debian.

Good. That is my point. It is NOT in fact that easy to contribute,
the process is inefficient and slow.

>  We just need to
> do it without making things insecure ("everyone can upload to Debian"),
> unpleasant ("DDs must spend all their time reviewing all changes"), or
> otherwise detrimental to the project as a whole.

I have no dispute at all with that.

> A good, productive way would be to motivate more people to sponsor
> packages for people, and to help them learn to do packaging better.

No. My point is that this is NOT a good way.

> Someone who insists that it is my duty to do things for them because I
> have gone through the (small!) trouble of learning how Debian packaging
> is done, and they have not, deserves no respect, and is rather unlikely
> to get help from me.

Sure, but I think you'd be way off the mark if you think that
applies to me. I have learned how Debian packaging is done --
not very well, but I did build my own package. Nor am I whining,
I really get angry when people are incapable of accepting
criticism .. especially when it is a process that I am critiquing.
I have no idea how you can think I insist that YOU do anything.
I am simply suggesting the process is inefficient and quite
discouraging for those wishing to contribute software but NOT
wishing to become full time Debian developers -- and that a
good deal more work might be done if it was easier for THOSE
people to contribute more directly.

John Skaller <skaller at users dot sf dot net>
Felix, successor to C++: http://felix.sf.net

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