On Monday 19 January 2009 11:59:13 am Anthony W. Youngman wrote:In message <[🔎] 200901191101.08985.skellogg@gmail.com>, Sean Kellogg <skellogg@gmail.com> writes >Stated a tad more fairly to those who have asked Fancesco to add >disclaimers... Francesco has a tendency to state opinions a little too >"matter-of-factly" for some d-l participents, leading those who >disagree to accuse him of the cardinal sin of "giving legal advice," >which is illegal in many jurisdictions (certainly the United States) >without proper certification. However, I agree with Ben that the >disclaimers are ludicrous... not because they are unecessary, but >because they are insufficient. You either are, or are not, giving legal >advice, and no amount of disclaimers changes that. One cannot say "you >should phrase your license X, Y, and Z... but this isn't legal advice". >It is, and if someone where to suffer economic harm by following said >advice, they would have grounds to bring suit against you for >malpractice and praciting without a license. Are you an American? (I think you are)I am... is this a problem?
No it's not a problem at all. What IS the problem is that you are telling me I should abide by American law, when I am not American, have only ever ONCE set foot on American soil, and have no desire to do so again.
Bearing in mind this mailing list is INTERNATIONAL, and Francesco is posting from a .it address (and I'm posting from a .uk address), me certainly and Francesco too I suspect find this attitude somewhat parochial (and ludicrous).I'm not entirely certain why the fact that the list is international means anything? The individuals who participate live *somewhere* and the laws of those somewheres apply. Everyone who participates on this list subjects themselves, in part, to the laws of those they reply to. Yes, there are jurisdictional issues, but that's different from the law itself.
That's called "extra-territoriality", which is frowned upon in most civilised jurisdictions ...
No offence to you, but it really doesn't go down well when Americans try to enforce their standards (ludicrous, sensible or otherwise) on foreign nations and nationals.I am somewhat at a loss... just as Francesco is in Italy, I am in the United States, and if he were to give me legal advice, he would be in violation of California statutes. Perhaps violating other country's laws doesn't bother him... perhaps he can simply declare my laws as "irrelevant"... but it would not be my advice, as I very much wonder what the controlling law would be when someone gives advice to another with knowledge that they are in a jurisdiction that requires a license even though they don't have one. Certainly if I were to give advice to someone in Utah, even though I live in California, I could be hauled into a Utah court... even though the legal practice law in a State law not a federal one. Even easier, the Utah fellow could sue me in a CA court under their own laws.
But surely, in order to do so, you must have broken a Federal statute? Not knowing the American legal system, I find it very odd that you could be sued in Utah, or in California under Utah law, if you've never been anywhere near Utah.
Mind you, if that's the case, maybe that's why Americans think American law can be enforced outside their own borders, if State law can be enforced outside of a state's borders.
As far as I am aware, UK rules basically forbid TRADING as a professional if you are not professionally qualified. To give a simple example, I can instruct anybody how to drive - in the UK we have something called a "provisional driving licence" which allows people to drive with various restrictions on what they're allowed to do. What I CANNOT do is charge someone for teaching them, unless I'm qualified to do so. With the exception of medicine, I think that's true for pretty much ALL the regulated professions.Not entirely certain what an Italian court would make of the claim of violating U.S. laws on the subject. He might get of free; I don't think it would be pretty. But, by all means, stick your head in the ground and complain about American parochialism, it's realy no skin off my knees.Incedently, as far as I can tell, the UK doesn't have the same sort of blanked practice requirement as the United States does, but it does have some areas of law that require you to certified as one of four different types of legal professionals. I didn't bother to look it up, because I don't honestly care -- whatever it is, it's going to be less strict than the rules I must follow -- but perhaps you might want to look it up, since you are so certain my suggestion about legal advice does not apply to you.
Actually - the requirements for practising law are less strict than that! My mother is a qualified Secretary (that's not a typist - it's a qualification that allows her to practice a (restricted) form of law). Every company MUST have a Company Secretary, who is responsible for keeping the company within the law, and who is legally personally liable for actions of the company. (Technically, they are responsible for proactively keeping the company legal, and can be personally fined or jailed for illegal actions by the company of which they should have made themselves aware.) But for small companies (under about $3M turnover) there is no requirement for them to be qualified in any way shape or form whatsoever. Above that, they must have legal, accountancy or secretarial qualifications.
But anyway. I'll give your claims the respect they deserve - and do a "reductio ad absurdam" on them! Do you remember the Dmitry Sklyarov affair? He wrote a cracker for Adobe's software. He wrote it IN RUSSIA, as was REQUIRED by Russian law, and then the Feds arrested him when he went to America, for his actions that were not only legal when and where he did them, but were required by the local law!
What am I supposed to do, if my local law REQUIRES me to do something to which American sensibilities take offence?
Unfortunately, it's attitudes like yours which result in things like this...
Dry Roast Peanuts Caution! This product may contain nuts!And I believe this really has appeared on product packaging !!! But don't expect the typical European to pay much respect to the lunatic American legal system (as an example, how long has the SCOG drama dragged on in the US? They actually tried the same thing in Germany - and within weeks were slapped down by a "put up or shut up" injunction).
Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anthony@thewolery.demon.co.uk