Re: RES: Where to put Open Transport Tycoon (openttd)
On 5/19/05, Raul Miller <moth.debian@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip horsepucky and irrelevancies]
> > This is relevant to OpenTTD, for instance, because its authors don't
> > (AFAIK) have a license from the copyright holder on Transport Tycoon
> > Deluxe to create a sequel/adaptation/whatever, and so they don't have
> > a valid copyright on OpenTTD, so they can't license it to you and me
> > under the GPL (or any other license that has any basis in copyright).
>
> I disagree -- the game's composition is in the game data. They don't
> have a copyright on the game data.
>
> I suppose it's also true that they don't have a copyright on the
> functionality represented by this game, but functionality wasn't
> copyrightable in the first place.
"Mise en scene", my friend, "mise en scene".
> > > In the context of openttd, this would be analogous to creating
> > > fresh copies of the game data which basically looked like and
> > > acted like the original game.
> > >
> > > But we're not talking about the game data, we're talking about
> > > the game engine.
> >
> > We're talking about a theory of derivative work that doesn't require
> > literal copying. In the game context, that would be closer to "mise
> > en scene" than to "public performance" / "unauthorized recording", so
> > the process of establishing the fact of copying is a bit different.
> > But with regard to freeciv (and the hypothesized
> > OpenTTD-that-doesn't-need-bits-of-the-original), I think it
> > vanishingly unlikely (IANAL) that the copyright holder on the original
> > would fail to establish facts in support of infringement.
>
> And all you have to do is identify the creative elements in question
> and I'd likely agree with you.
>
> All I'm saying is that we've not as yet identified any.
Go look at the OpenTTD website and tell me that you honestly can't see
any basis for a belief that the OpenTTD game engine copies elements of
copyrightable expression from Transport Tycoon Deluxe.
> > > The game engine is to the game what a musical instrument
> > > is to music. You use a musical instrument to play music
> > > in much the same way you use a game engine to play the
> > > game.
> >
> > Horsepucky. It's not a generic game engine, it's a clone of a
> > specific game. If you make a "musical instrument" that can only be
> > used to play "Happy Birthday (To You)", guess what? You need license
> > from its copyright holder.
>
> A game engine is to a game what a programming language is
> to a program.
>
> If you have some evidence that no other compositions are possible
> with this game engine, please present it.
Description: An open source clone of the Microprose game "Transport
Tycoon Deluxe". If that doesn't ring alam bells for you, you are no
guardian of Debian's collective well-being.
> > > There might be some uniquely creative elements to some
> > > musical instrument, which are copyrightable. Likewise,
> > > there might be some uniquely creative elements in the game
> > > engine which are copyrightable. We just haven't identified
> > > any, yet.
> >
> > The "creativity" / "originality" threshold for copyrightability is
> > quite low. I don't think the copyright holder on a complex simulation
> > game such as Civilization or Transport Tycoon would have any
> > difficulty establishing that copyrightable elements have been copied
> > into admitted clones of their game engines.
>
> Ok, so you're saying you could rather easily find some of these
> creative elements.
>
> Have fun,
Dude, I am not the lawyer for whoever owns copyright to Transport
Tycoon Deluxe these days. You wanna play with it, it's no skin off my
nose. You insist that it goes into Debian, it's still not much skin
off my nose -- IANADD and I'm sure the ftpmasters would drop it if a
cease-and-desist letter ever hit. But if you haven't noticed, your
credibility as an arbiter of Debian's compliance with legal
constraints is in tatters. You really want to piss more of it away
over this?
- Michael
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