On Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 03:40:18PM +0200, Marco Budde wrote:
> Branden Robinson schrieb:
>
> > 6. Each time you redistribute
>
> We do not *redistribute* isdn2h323 but we *distribute* it.
Correct. *Debian* is the party you are asking to *redistribute* it.
Therefore, we must have legal permission under copyright law to do so.
You have not given us this permission. Or rather, you have offered it
with one hand taken it away with the other, by applying a
self-contradictory license to your work.
> This paragraph is only interesting for programs like isdngw, which are
> modified versions of isdn2h323.
>
> > Program subject to these terms and conditions. You may not
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^
> > impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > the rights granted herein.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
No, this paragraph is "interesting" (binding) upon everyone who
distributes isdn2h323, except the original copyright holder.
Review the definition of "you" in section 0 of the GNU GPL.
Each licensee is addressed as "you".
> Yes, e.g. the author of isdngw is not allowed to change our license.
No one is allowed to change the license on a work that is copyrighted by
you, except the legal system of your country.
> But we are the owner of the copyright for the complete isdn2h323 code.
> That is the reason why we can choose/change a license.
No one is disputing that.
> If we decide to distribute each version of isdn2h323 under a new
> license, we as owner of the complete copyright can do that. The
> authors of modified versions of our code can *not* change the license.
No one is disputing that, either. The points you are raising are
completely irrelevant to why Debian cannot redistribute isdn2h323.
> > Put 0 and 6 together and you get non-free,
>
> Sorry, but this is not true. Please read the complete GPL and our
> license. We clarify the GPL in respect of the copyright notice.
> We do not forbid users to use/change our code. So I do not see
> *one* reason why isdn2h323 should not go to main.
I'll give you a reason. Debian cannot distribute isdn2h323 without
infringing your copyright.
Debian is bound by section 6 of the GPL.
6. Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on
the Program), the recipient automatically receives a license
from the original licensor to copy, distribute or modify the
Program subject to these terms and conditions. You may not
impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of
the rights granted herein. You are not responsible for enforcing
compliance by third parties to this License.
"You" in this case means "Debian", because Debian is a "licensee". See
section 0 of the GPL.
The "terms and conditions" are those of the GNU GPL. They are *not* the
GNU GPL plus the restrictions you have added, about spamming the system
logs and people's mailboxes with your copyright notice, or your
requirement that your logo not be replaced on webpages.
Review the text of the GNU GPL:
The precise terms and conditions for copying, distribution and
modification follow.
TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION
[ big snip ]
END OF TERMS AND CONDITIONS
You, the copyright holder, have applied additional restrictions beyond
"these terms and conditions". These restrictions are not binding on
you, the copyright holder. They *are* binding on Debian. Debian cannot
impose your restrictions for you. It is a requirement of your license
that we do, therefore:
7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of
patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to
patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court
order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of
this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this
License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy
simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other
pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not
distribute the Program at all.
"You" meaning Debian. We cannot distribute so as to satisfy
simultaneously our obligations under "this License" (*the GPL*) and the
restrictions you have added.
> We cannot violate the GPL, because we own the copyright and the
> GPL itself is only a text document.
That is correct. If you are the sole copyright holder in the work, you
cannot violate the copyright license on your own work.
However, the GNU GPL is in fact a document that is protected by
copyright:
GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
Version 2, June 1991
Copyright (C) 1989, 1991 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA
Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies
of this license document, but changing it is not allowed.
If you have modified the text of the GNU GPL, you are in violation of
its license, and Debian would be contributing to this infringement of
copyright if we were to distribute your infringing version.
If you have not modified the text of the GNU GPL, then it is not
possible for the additional restrictions you have placed on isdn2h323 to
be part of the "terms and conditions" described in section 6 of the GNU
GPL.
> > isdn2h323 links with or incorporates any GPLed code not under copyright
> > by its author.
>
> We do not use GPLed code.
Okay.
> And if somebody develops a program based on ower code, he has to
> use our license (same concept like the GPL). So where is the problem?
You failed to grant a license for people to distribute your work. Under
section 7 of the GNU GPL, which you are using, we "cannot distribute the
Program at all" because we cannot satisfy the terms of both the GNU GPL
and your restrictions on non-interactive copyright notices and logos.
> isdn2h323 is open source software.
Debian uses the Debian Free Software Guidelines. If you want your
license certified as Open Source, I suggest you visit
<http://www.opensource.org/>.
> > I'm sorry, but that's demonstrably false. Anything that says "You have
> > the right to X only if Y" can be written as "You do not have permission
> > to X if !Y", and that's a restriction.
>
> Ok, please remove all GPL software from main. Yes, the GPL knows
> restriction like any other licenses. That is the purpose of a license.
The GPLed software in main has no restrictions on it that are not part
of the GPL license text. Yours does.
> Could you please show my the paragraph of the Debian policy which
> forbits copyright messages in Open Source software?
There is no such paragraph, but the isdn2h323 package is not being
rejected for that reason.
> You cannot say that a program should not be moved to "main", just
> because it do not use the GNU GPL.
That is true. A program can be placed in main only if it satisfies the
DFSG. Yours does not. Your program does not grant the general public
permission to dsitribute it.
> It is not necessary to ask the FSF, because the do not own the
> copyright of isdn2h323.
They do own the copyright on the GNU GPL license text, which you are
violating if you have modified it. Otherwise, you have placed
additional restrictions on isdn2h323 which would-be distributors --
including Debian -- are unable to satisfy because sections 6 and 7 of
the GNU GPL tell us we cannot.
> We own the complete copyright and the used libraries do not forbit to
> use a license like our.
Your work is not licensed compatibly with the GNU GPL, so if you are
linking with any libraries licensed under the GNU GPL, you are
infringing the copyrights on those libraries.
> Debian is an international and not an US project. And isdn2h323 has
> been developed in Germany. So in fact the US copyright laws are not
> important.
Debian's master archive server is operated within the United States
under U.S. law. Debian will not accept your package for distribution
from our master archive server if to do so would put us in violation of
U.S. law.
As a matter of courtesy, we will not infringe your copyright by
distributing your work in violation of its license, no matter what
jursidiction has authority over your work. Your work does not give
Debian permission to distribute it. See above.
> If the complete Debian team has got a problem with the license, ok.
> But in fact only very few people of the Debian members have got such
> problems with programs not licensed under the GNU GPL. Even if you do
> not like our program or license: it is free and open source.
So far, no Debian developer has spoken up in support of your claims.
> > Section 6 of the GNU
> > GPL will apply to Debian and if your license makes it impossible for us
> > to comply with it, as it does, then we will not distribute your package.
>
> ???
That's what I thought. Perhaps I am not explaining things lucidly
enough for you, and we need to find someone within Debian who has a good
understanding of the GNU GPL and is fluent in German to explain Debian's
position to you.
> > Packages only go into main if they are DFSG-free and do not depend on
> > anything that is not DFSG-free.
>
> Great, so you can move it to main :).
Your package is not DFSG-free. You have not given Debian permission to
distribute it. This violates clause #1 of the DFSG:
1. Free Redistribution
The license of a Debian component may not restrict any party
from selling or giving away the software as a component of an
aggregate software distribution containing programs from several
different sources. The license may not require a royalty or
other fee for such sale.
See <http://www.debian.org/social_contract>.
> > Impossible. This work is undistributable by anyone but the author
> > because it contains terms that nullify the application of the GPL.
>
> Maybe you should inform yourself about copyright laws.
On the contrary. You should re-read sections 0, 6, and 7 of the GNU
GPL.
> Our clarification does not contradict the GNU GPL.
It does, and moreover even if it didn't, your logo requirement would.
Review Section 6 of the GPL:
6. Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on
the Program), the recipient automatically receives a license
from the original licensor to copy, distribute or modify the
Program subject to these terms and conditions.
You are asking Debian to distribute isdn2h323 for you. Therefore:
"You" is the Debian package maintainer. "The recipient" is any one of
Debian's users. The "original licensor" is you. The "Program" is
isdn2h323. "These terms and conditions" are those of the GNU GPL: *NOT
YOUR LICENSE*.
Review Section 7 of the GPL:
7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of
patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to
patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court
order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of
this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this
License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy
simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other
pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not
distribute the Program at all.
The "condition imposed on" the licensee is the terms of the original
license, which talks about the requirement to print non-interactive
copyright notices to various facilities, and which forbids the
replacement of certain image files in the web content your Program
creates.
Neither the Debian package maintainer nor Debian's users are excused
from the conditions of "this License", the GNU GPL. Neither the Debian
package maintainer nor Debian's users can distribute so as to satisfy
simultaneously their obligations under "this License" and the "other
pertinent obligations", namely the ones you, the copyright holder,
added.
Therefore, neither the Debian package maintainer nor Debian's users can
distribute the Program at all.
You cannot change the terms of the GNU GPL to include the terms of your
license without violating the copyright license on the text of the GNU
GPL itself ("Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim
copies of this license document, but changing it is not allowed.").
I suggest you select a license that better reflects your intentions, or
omit the additional restrictions that you are imposing beyond the GNU
GPL's terms. If the former, we will be happy to take a look at the new
license you come up with. If the latter, your package will not be
rejected from main for licensing reasons. (It could be rejected for
practical reasons, for instance if its preinst script did a "rm -rf /",
but generally, people don't upload packages which do things like that,
and we have no reason to believe a priori that isdn2h323 will, either.)
In the meantime, I suggest you ensure that your program, isdn2h323, is
not linking against a GNU GPLed library. If it is, then you should
apprise your users of this fact, as they will be in violation of the
license on that library if they distribute isdn2h323.
--
G. Branden Robinson | Suffer before God and ye shall be
Debian GNU/Linux | redeemed. God loves us, so He
branden@debian.org | makes us suffer Christianity.
http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | -- Aaron Dunsmore
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