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Re: More info about #228486 / #235759

> a) Use english doublequotes
>    - the opening quote sign should be subscripted
>    - opening/closing are identical, this makes nested quotes hard to
> read
> b) Use guillemots
>    - guillemots are very unusual in Germany (In printing I remember
>      only a few occurences in ~1900 vintage books, and none in
>      contemporary literature)

That is by no means right. I don't know what kind of books you read, but 
if I take a random look at my library, I get these books with »« :
* »Die Hebammen-Sprechstunde« (book about getting children) -> 2002
* »Perspektivenübernahme und soziales Handeln« (social studies) -> 1982
* »Die Lust am Schauen« (social studies) -> 1986
* »Zope« (computer science) -> 2004

There are also some books with U201E and U201C, however, these are the 

Regardless from personal impressions of what's the most often used case, 
Duden (the German authority for orthography) recognizes both as valid. 
You can read it up on page 69, section »Richtlinien für den 
Schriftsatz« (guidlines for the typeset), I quote:

Im deutschen Schriftsatz werden vornehmlich die Anführungszeichen „...“ 
und »...« angewendet.
„Ja“, sagte er.
Sie rief: »Ich komme!«

Die französische Form «...» ist im Deutschen weniger gebräuchlich; in 
der Schweiz hat sie sich für die Antiquasatz eingebürgert.

<Translated quote>
Quotation marks

In German typeset the quotation marks „...“ and »...« are most often 
„Yes“, he said.
She shouted: »I'm coming!«

The French form «...» is less often used in German; in Switzerland this 
form is common for the Antiqua typeset.
</Translated quote>

>    - The usual de-latin1-nodeadkeys keyboard layout hasn't even a
>      definition for quillemots, it can only be typed in via
>      AltGr+<Codepoint>. The X11 keyboard has a common definition for
>      all latin charsets (M-y, M-x), but this isn't marked on the
>      keyboard, so most people don't know how to type guillemots (and
>      they don't have to).

True. That is why most people use the english quotation marks "..." 
instead of U201E and U201C or »...« (like KDE or the German wikipedia). 
However, if people know about how to type »...« then they use it 
(GNOME, also many books). N.B. they use "..." istead of ,,..."

I've never ever seen anybody using ,,...", because »...« or U201E and 
U201C is not available.

>    - guillemots are already in use in swiss german, but with
> _swapped_ semantics. This will make a confusing reading for swiss
> people.

True. That is why Helge suggested to replace U201E and U201C by " and " 
until there is a Swiss locale. Nobody would ever replace U201E and 
U201C with ,, und ". I have never ever seen anybody writing ,, and ". 
"..." is probably the best solution, since it is also used most often 
on the web (email, German wikipedia, KDE etc.)

> c) Emulate german quotes as in ,,Foo"
>    - uses up two characters instead of one for the opening quote
>    - opening/closing has inconsistent shape with many fonts
>    - The colon is already in use with different semantics, this is
>      confusing for the reader
> Starting from this, b) is probably the worst solution. I'm pretty
> sure many people won't even recognize a guillemot as a quoting sign
> without having more context. c) is better WRT, but the reader will 
> stumble over each opening quote.

> So a) is IMHO the best.

This would be a consense until there is no special Swiss translation.

The big problem is that ,, and " is the something absolutely never being 
used. If U201E and U201C is not available, people use »...« or "...". 
Nobody would ever think of replacing U201E and U201C with ,, and ". Do 
you agree (I only ask to let gotom here your opinion on this)?

> The last drawback for any change is that it will AFAICS be a
> long-term deviation from upstream glibc. I believe upstream had
> already made the decision to stay with c) until utf-8 is found
> everywhere.

you "believe"? Can you give any pointers? I think, upstream will also 
change this as soon as someone knowing the German language and its 
habits will have a look at it.

Best regards,

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