Re: Window managers (was: XFCE for Debian JR)
On Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 01:52:25PM +0800, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
> Ben Armstrong wrote:
> > I'm aiming for "usability", which in my
> > opinion, KDE & Gnome doesn't significantly contribute to (or at least not
> > to the point where I'd personally be willing to invest the effort to
> > include them).
>
> In term of usability I don't agree with you.
> Let me explain, if we considere the list of package listed in Debian-jr,
> the usability among these packages is a nightmare. Just consider, the
> save-a-file operation. If you go from Xpaint to Gimp to freeciv to
> mozilla to Emacs then Lyx the kids will have to learn 6 different
> paradigm to save a file.
So, we should stop listing those packages? Or we should push to have
Gnome or KDE versions of each of those packages? Both at once? One or
the other? You see, there's a lot of work involved to solve this problem
that is just beyond the scope of this project in its current state of
infancy.
> Nothing to blame on Debian-jr but this is these
> kind of usability problems that Gnome/KDE project try to solve by providing
> good consistency interface.
I haven't really noticed my own children having big problems with this. I
think it is often adults who expect everything to be the same way all of
the time. Children are fairly flexible and come to computers with very
few expectations. In fact, I think the diversity of 'nix serves them
better because they learn to deal with the unexpected, which is always
going to be a reality with computers, integrated desktops notwithstanding.
Having said that, different children have different styles of learning and
there may actually be a problem, as you say, with consistency of interface
with some childrens' learning styles. And thus it is going to be a
problem we will eventually have to face.
> I have used GNU/Linux environment with young student for several years,
> and these usability problems make them feel GNU/Linux is not an easy
> to use system.
> (Here some ideas on http://cran.seul.org/~hilaire/korea/ofset/)
It is clear from this presentation that you focus on Gnome to the
exclusion of KDE. But Debian includes both. This illustrates
particularly well why I don't want to go off in this direction right now.
If we were to focus our energies on supporting both Gnome and KDE, we
would really be dissipating our efforts. If we were to choose one or the
other, then we really wouldn't be focused well on the goal of making
*Debian* more suitable for children. Instead, we would become partisan
supporters of a particular desktop environment.
> Now it's understandable you don't want to spend time on packaging
> that software but I guess that most of them are already packaged.
I didn't say I didn't want to spend time packaging any particular piece of
software. I just said I'd like to steer clear at the moment from
Gnome-based or KDE-based desktops for version one of Debian Jr. I was
basically making excuse for not including either of these in the window
managers section from the outset because I felt it would take us off on a
tangent trying to answer questions like "which is better?" and "how do we
integrate Gnome and non-Gnome? or KDE and non-KDE?" and "do we include the
Gnome/KDE version *and* the non-Gnome/KDE version?" It is simply a matter
of limiting scope to something manageable for our initial work. Otherwise,
our work is in some areas multiplied by three.
I'm not philosophically opposed to the use of Gnome or KDE with children.
In fact, as these integrated desktop environments mature, I am sure that
parents and educators will be attracted to one or the other and use them
instead of a bare window manager. I am also confident that as Debian Jr.
matures, we will gain the resources necessary to fully support both.
I don't feel that omitting Gnome/KDE from our "included in Debian Jr."
list is going to be a big barrier to childrens' systems administrators
installing Debian Jr. *and* either Gnome or KDE anyway. They are free to
do so. What they may be missing with Debian Jr. version one is they might
find that they need to use non-Gnome or non-KDE versions of things that we
have only packaged in that flavour until such time as we have the
resources to support the desktop-environment-specific versions of them
later.
Ben
--
nSLUG http://www.nslug.ns.ca synrg@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca
Debian http://www.debian.org synrg@debian.org
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