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AW: Fwd: FOSDEM 19 Debian Java talk



according to the Apache Release Policy a release is the source and while it allows and defines convinience binaries there is not really a Notion of „official binaries“ from the ASF Point of view. So Maybe the new property should be something like „binary Vendor“ or „packager“ (similiar what many package Managers have?)


I think the number of additional support Problems because of distribution specific packages and the number of solved Problems by distributions doing a good Integration Job can not be clearly tallied.


And therefore I would stay away from language like „modified“, „official“ to avoid those Groups to feel unwelcome (especially in the ASF spirit of open SOURCE).






Von: Michael Osipov
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Februar 2019 19:36
An: Maven Developers List; Robert Scholte; Dalibor Topic; Markus Koschany
Cc: debian-java@lists.debian.org; Matthias Klose
Betreff: Re: Fwd: FOSDEM 19 Debian Java talk


Am 2019-02-12 um 20:09 schrieb Robert Scholte:

> On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 12:34:56 +0100, Markus Koschany <apo@debian.org> wrote:


>> Hello,


>> Dalibor Topic (Oracle) and Robert Scholte (Apache Maven) contacted me

>> and were so kind to agree to make this discussion public, so that others

>> can chime in too. I would like to use the opportunity to answer the

>> initial question "what we are interested in seeing better supported from

>> build tools" and give some general feedback about integrating Java into

>> Debian.



>> First of all Ant and Maven are most likely the best supported build

>> systems at the moment. We carry only two patches for Maven, one because

>> we use a newer version of SLF4j [1] and the second one is to make Maven

>> builds reproducible. [2] It looks like [1] has been already merged

>> upstream but [2] has not been forwarded yet. It would be great of

>> course, if Maven builds would be reproducible out-of-the-box. In general

>> I would like to see reproducible builds everywhere.


> Hi Markus,


> first of all thanks for the insights, it is important for us to know how

> Maven is used and in which way we can improve that way-of-work. Hervé is

> already working hard on the reproducible builds specs with your team in

> order to find out how we can improve our maven-plugins to get

> reproducible artifacts.


> Maven itself is not 100% reproducible. We've learned that some Linux

> vendors rebuild Maven and the presentation confirmed that Debian is one

> of those vendors. What we've seen in the past is that sometimes people

> are having issues with Maven and after a while we discovered that they

> were not using the official Apache Maven distribution[1]. For us it is

> quite easy to say: sorry, not our official distribution, please contact

> your Linux distributor.

> In such case we have 3 losers: the user, the Apache Maven project and

> the Linux Distributor. If only the official Maven distribution was used,

> then we would have had 3 winners.


> When you decide to rebuild Maven, you're also taking all related

> responsibilities. I'm also wondering how you build Maven, since Maven is

> being built with Maven. That should be a challenge to also rebuild all

> plugins, etc.

> And how do you test this and confirm that it works as the official

> distribution?

> Sure, *IF* Maven is 100% reproducible then you can rely on our

> test-infra, but that's not the situation.


> So here are my main questions:

> - Are you making clear that you're not using the official Maven

> distribution, e.g. by adjust the info from 'mvn --version'?


I expressed my proposal to Hervé that we need a new property:

maven.vendor. Our official distribution will carry the value: ASF.

Everyone else who modifies the content must change the value in the

build.properties. Thus, we will quickly know that this distro has been

modified by someone else.






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