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Re: [RFC] l10n survey available



On Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 12:10:15PM +0200, Martin Quinson wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 11:01:32AM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 12:53:55AM +0200, Martin Quinson wrote:
> > > I've made a sort of survey about l10n in Debian. It lists all kind of
> > > material available (program, man page, web site, ...), and for each, look
> > > how the l10n issues are addressed.
> > > 
> > > Then, there is a chapter about the future of l10n, and of the Debian
> > > Translation Center (w.d.o/intl/l10n)
> > > 
> > > It is available there:
> > > 
> > > http://www.ens-lyon.fr/~mquinson/debian/l10n-survey
> > 
> > ok. 
> > 
[...]
> > But IMHO the ddts resolve all the translation problems.  
> 
> Not all, but that's better than what was done before. It does not help
> enough on maintaining, since the translator won't be warned of the need of
> update. 

sorry, but you don't read my announcments, the guide and the faq (and
you don't support with translations on the ddts :-)

If a description has changed 'upstream' the old translator get a mail
with the old description, with a diff, with the new description and
his old translation. 

He must resend his new translation (with or without changes) to the
server.

The updates does work. See the daily update output on
http://a.d.o/~grisu/ddts/

>         And you add a new format of material to translate. Since translators
> are not all geek, that can be a problem, and I would prefer if the dtts
> communicate with translator in po format. Because kbabel, gtranslator and
> others exists.

This is not a new Format.
Mail and rfc822 (aka control file format) are not new.

You need not a greek to translat the desccription. Ok, sometimes a new
translators make mistakes, but the coordinator for his languages get
all translations as bcc's and he will help. The server help with
warnings and error messages etc.

send a Mail to grisu-td@a.d.o with the subject line 'STATUS de' and
you will see the german group has more than 80 translators. And only
some of this transölators are debian maintainers or geeks.

> But as I said before, I prefer the dtts as it is now than as it was 6 months
> ago... 

We don't have a ddts 6 months ago. The ddts is only 1-2 months old. 

You mean perhaps the first web page with the description... This was
only a first thought, on this web page was _not_ translated
description.

(this web page was like the debconf translation page. The debconf page
is all by hand, without real scripts etc. If someone translate a
debconf, he send a mail to _me_ and _I_ change the webpage... not
nice. This don't work with >6000 description. After a discuss with a
main debconf translator of a web interface, we (he and myself)
prefered a mail interface... -> I write the ddts.)

and a next point:
one point don't work with the ddts _now_. the BTS.
Now the server don't accept translations from the wrong translator, if
the description is already translated.
The next step is: If some translator change a already translated
description, the ddts send this new translation (with the old
translation, with the orignal description and a diff output) to the
old translator. (But not now. I must first complete the db
translation. And after this, this bts function is the next step.)


> > > I'm very interressed in any kind of feedback. In particular, if the list of
> > > material is not as exhaustive as wanted, I'll be glad to extend it.
> > 
> > to the standard architecture:
> >   We should start and/or improve the translation of the texts from debian. (like
> >   descriptions, debian guides, man pages from debian (only) packages, ...)
> >   
> >   Don't start a project to translating all po-files. Some groups have
> >   his own translation projects (like kde). 
> 
> Sure. Debian translate debian specific material, other group are on there own.
> But what I dream about is the contrary, in fact: I dream about seing all
> group using the same tools. So, Debian l10n tools would be contributed by
> others, too.

ok, this is a dream.

start with the reality. :-)

> > to the Organization issues:
> >   IMHO we don't need changes in the constitution.
> > 
> >   But we need real i10n groups, one per langauges. This groups can
> >   translated the (debian) man pages, write debconf bug reports,
> >   translated the package descriptions, etc. 
> > 
> >   But we don't need a 'a new kind of person'. 
> > 
> >   I love more the central approach like the ddts and not the
> >   translation per package (like debconf). The package maintainer does
> >   only delay the translation. 
> 
> And because the maintainer delays the translation, I would like to give the
> translator the ability to commit his changes....

yes. This can we make and without NMU. The translations need this own
packages. And for this, we don't need a change in the constitution or
a new kind of person.

> > to the Packaging issues:
> >   IMHO we should not include all translation in all Packages. A
> >   package with 
> >    - all man pages with all >20 translations
> >    - all package description 
> >    - with all po-files
> >    - with all translated README's 
> >    - with all info pages
> >    - with all guides
> >    ...
> >  are to big and useless. Nobody can write/read all this translation
> >  and use this...
> > 
> >  The 'orignal' package include only the english man and info pages,
> >  the english description, etc. And we have a usefull co-packages with
> >  only the translated parts (man, info, po-files, REAME, guides). 
> > 
> >  With this you need only reconfig apt and you get more languages or
> >  less. 
> 
> Thank you for resuming my text :)

no, this was no resuming. Your text are treat much more.

the point was:
 don't include the translation in the normal packages!

 this is only a delay and we don't any advantage with this. Put the
 translation in his own packages and improve the package managment 
 (aka apt) and get this packages automagic installed.


Gruss
Grisu
-- 
Michael Bramer  -  a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org
PGP: finger grisu@db.debian.org  -- Linux Sysadmin   -- Use Debian Linux
l Gunasekara <Gunasekara@t-online.de>

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