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Re: [RFC] l10n survey available

On Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 12:10:15PM +0200, Martin Quinson wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 11:01:32AM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 12:53:55AM +0200, Martin Quinson wrote:
> > > I've made a sort of survey about l10n in Debian. It lists all kind of
> > > material available (program, man page, web site, ...), and for each, look
> > > how the l10n issues are addressed.
> > > 
> > > Then, there is a chapter about the future of l10n, and of the Debian
> > > Translation Center (w.d.o/intl/l10n)
> > > 
> > > It is available there:
> > > 
> > > http://www.ens-lyon.fr/~mquinson/debian/l10n-survey
> > 
> > ok. 
> > 
> > But IMHO the ddts resolve all the translation problems.  
> Not all, but that's better than what was done before. It does not help
> enough on maintaining, since the translator won't be warned of the need of
> update. 

sorry, but you don't read my announcments, the guide and the faq (and
you don't support with translations on the ddts :-)

If a description has changed 'upstream' the old translator get a mail
with the old description, with a diff, with the new description and
his old translation. 

He must resend his new translation (with or without changes) to the

The updates does work. See the daily update output on

>         And you add a new format of material to translate. Since translators
> are not all geek, that can be a problem, and I would prefer if the dtts
> communicate with translator in po format. Because kbabel, gtranslator and
> others exists.

This is not a new Format.
Mail and rfc822 (aka control file format) are not new.

You need not a greek to translat the desccription. Ok, sometimes a new
translators make mistakes, but the coordinator for his languages get
all translations as bcc's and he will help. The server help with
warnings and error messages etc.

send a Mail to grisu-td@a.d.o with the subject line 'STATUS de' and
you will see the german group has more than 80 translators. And only
some of this transölators are debian maintainers or geeks.

> But as I said before, I prefer the dtts as it is now than as it was 6 months
> ago... 

We don't have a ddts 6 months ago. The ddts is only 1-2 months old. 

You mean perhaps the first web page with the description... This was
only a first thought, on this web page was _not_ translated

(this web page was like the debconf translation page. The debconf page
is all by hand, without real scripts etc. If someone translate a
debconf, he send a mail to _me_ and _I_ change the webpage... not
nice. This don't work with >6000 description. After a discuss with a
main debconf translator of a web interface, we (he and myself)
prefered a mail interface... -> I write the ddts.)

and a next point:
one point don't work with the ddts _now_. the BTS.
Now the server don't accept translations from the wrong translator, if
the description is already translated.
The next step is: If some translator change a already translated
description, the ddts send this new translation (with the old
translation, with the orignal description and a diff output) to the
old translator. (But not now. I must first complete the db
translation. And after this, this bts function is the next step.)

> > > I'm very interressed in any kind of feedback. In particular, if the list of
> > > material is not as exhaustive as wanted, I'll be glad to extend it.
> > 
> > to the standard architecture:
> >   We should start and/or improve the translation of the texts from debian. (like
> >   descriptions, debian guides, man pages from debian (only) packages, ...)
> >   
> >   Don't start a project to translating all po-files. Some groups have
> >   his own translation projects (like kde). 
> Sure. Debian translate debian specific material, other group are on there own.
> But what I dream about is the contrary, in fact: I dream about seing all
> group using the same tools. So, Debian l10n tools would be contributed by
> others, too.

ok, this is a dream.

start with the reality. :-)

> > to the Organization issues:
> >   IMHO we don't need changes in the constitution.
> > 
> >   But we need real i10n groups, one per langauges. This groups can
> >   translated the (debian) man pages, write debconf bug reports,
> >   translated the package descriptions, etc. 
> > 
> >   But we don't need a 'a new kind of person'. 
> > 
> >   I love more the central approach like the ddts and not the
> >   translation per package (like debconf). The package maintainer does
> >   only delay the translation. 
> And because the maintainer delays the translation, I would like to give the
> translator the ability to commit his changes....

yes. This can we make and without NMU. The translations need this own
packages. And for this, we don't need a change in the constitution or
a new kind of person.

> > to the Packaging issues:
> >   IMHO we should not include all translation in all Packages. A
> >   package with 
> >    - all man pages with all >20 translations
> >    - all package description 
> >    - with all po-files
> >    - with all translated README's 
> >    - with all info pages
> >    - with all guides
> >    ...
> >  are to big and useless. Nobody can write/read all this translation
> >  and use this...
> > 
> >  The 'orignal' package include only the english man and info pages,
> >  the english description, etc. And we have a usefull co-packages with
> >  only the translated parts (man, info, po-files, REAME, guides). 
> > 
> >  With this you need only reconfig apt and you get more languages or
> >  less. 
> Thank you for resuming my text :)

no, this was no resuming. Your text are treat much more.

the point was:
 don't include the translation in the normal packages!

 this is only a delay and we don't any advantage with this. Put the
 translation in his own packages and improve the package managment 
 (aka apt) and get this packages automagic installed.

Michael Bramer  -  a Debian Linux Developer http://www.debian.org
PGP: finger grisu@db.debian.org  -- Linux Sysadmin   -- Use Debian Linux
l Gunasekara <Gunasekara@t-online.de>

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