Removing constipation - Back to Basics >Re: where do NEW packages go?
On 18-May-02 07:03:51 Jeroen Dekkers <jeroen@dekkers.cx> wrote:
[snip]
JD> It's more directed to the cabals in Debian. I know a lot of
JD> package maintainers are willing to help the Hurd port, but it's
JD> made impossible by small group of people who don't want to
JD> cooperate. And if you say something about it, it's always your
JD> fault and not theirs, because they think that they are holy and
JD> don't make mistakes, you are just a fool wasting their time. And
JD> that is just the way the Hurd port is treated in Debian.
Funny, a good bit of the above sounds like what I got in #hurd And perhaps
even elesewhere much closer to the hurd home.
But overall this discussion recently seems to be something of an
identification of constipation that need a back to basics cure.
Egos are a nasty thing that can get in the way alot but the cool thing
about the hurd is that it is to allow differences to exist together.
The point is, there are alot of very good benefits to be had in gaining
freedoms in using the hurd. These benefits need to be better identified
and pushed.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't FSF, GNU and GPL all about freedom and
don't these stand above debian in the "what is responsible for the
existance of the other". Not to mention the Hurd being the official GNU
core.
Maybe this matter needs a bit of RMS input?
When those above you do not listen, then go above them. Or ask yourself if
they really are above you, beyond your choice.
But back to basics is probably what is really needed as I've seen alot
lately that is so disconnected from the basics that it seems to be a
trend. I.E. "do you think lying is OK?" is a basic question with a simple
yes or no answer but looking at microsofts crap in the courts this is a
basic principle that doesn't appear to exist at all anymore. And that is
constipation serious. Maybe MS has also infilterated Debian, as they have
elsewhere?
If debian is really becomming a dictator like organization then how about
an option that gets back to the basics of what FSF, GNU and GPL are all
about? Certainly there were alot of people who joined Debain based upon
such basic principles and who would seek the same now.
Anyone for Freedom? Or is this going to become like constantly batteling
for your privacy, because the politicians are being bought off by the
corporations who want to sell your personal info? A never ending battle?
Personally I don't consider constantly batteling, to be a freedom from
such time wasting conflictions dis-ease.
The Hurd allows for, or is to, choice and co-existance of differences,
does it not?
Simple answer: Yes or No?
>From the Users point of view (be it developer user or newbie end usr and
all inbetween):
In the Science of Computing (as opposed to the politics of computing)
there are three primary user interfaces (not so unlike the having three
primary colors from which you can make up all other colors). Nature seems
to love "3 primaries".
If you remove one of the colors or user interfaces, you greatly restrict
what all can be created and done by the user.
Those three user interfaces are: The command line (shell prompt), the
Graphical User Interface, and the third is the side door "port" that many
know in different ways, such as APIs, pipes, etc.. (what has been defined
even down to the three basic forms of the third being the passing of a
signal semiphor, a message, and a memory address, between active
functionality in the system, be it within a program or between programs
even across a distributed network.)
Having or making all three of these user interfaces available to all
users in a reasonable and usable manner is an act of providing freedom.
Don't make the mistake of assuming every and all end user don't want the
third, for that would be acting in a false authority and judgement of
others. It would be very inconsistant with the basic concept of freedom.
Alot of developers tend to make that mistake (as a matter of taking
"control over others for money and other things"). If this wasn't a hard
fact, then the computer industry wouldn be the way it is and there would
be no MS vs. DOJ anti-trust case today. To put out any heat being
generated by what I just wrote, how would you feel if I stated that there
was no point in the Hurd because it's all being done in Linux, or that all
the hurd will do is follow linux which only follows Windows, or my saying
nobody needs new options beyond linux capabilities...?
Do you really want to constrain the primary colors of the rainbow and live
in a less colorful world? Or constrain the rainbow of computing?
THIS THIRD USER INTERFACE:
Not only is this third user interface used to "put things together" but by
inherent design, the Hurd is strongly supportive of it, as it makes alot of
use of this third user interface.
As an end user, I want the three primary user interfaces in an easy to use
and reasonable manner, so I can do things, create things for myself. So I
can be free to do things as I see fit rather than being constrained by the
politics and commercial interest of others.
Having these three user interfaces available in a reasonable and useable
manner is prerequsite to the development of an autocoding environment.
http://www.ai.mit.edu/~gregs/ll1-discuss-archive-html/msg01363.html
Put another way: Refering to RMS, FSF, GNU and the GPL. Just how far does
freedom go if it doesn't include the typical computer end user in a usable
and reasonable manner to them? At this point in time, none of these
support typical end user freedoms.
To reach this goal of genuine computer user freedom, all three user
interfaces being available to the typical user is a pre-reqisite.
This is where the Hurd comes in. It's why the hurd is important and it
needs to be made clear to all those involved in the GNU effort.
About the so called "cabals":
cabal: 1. a small group of plotters, esp. against a government. 2. the
plotting of such a group. 3. a clique
This random house dictionary definition sounds like it's talking about
morons promoting it's set of constraints via the illision of constraint
removal of others.
But thru further investigation of this word and it's evolution and
variations, it seems that there is some focus around "creation" and the
process of it. http://www.ritmanlibrary.nl/kabb37.jpg
The cabals don't have the exclusive on cabala.
Freedom to create....As I See Fit to do for myself.
Isn't this what the All of GNU is supposed to be about?
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