Le jeudi 08 avril 2021 à 14:36:09-0700, Dmitry Borodaenko a écrit : > On Thu, Apr 08, 2021 at 05:44:59AM +0100, Martina Ferrari wrote: > > It is so repetitive is boring at this point. One side wants to see a whole > > group of people dead, the other side is saying that is really bad with very > > strong words; the centrist chastises the latter for being rude. > > The paradox of tolerance states that tolerating intolerance undermines > society's ability to remain tolerant. I find it disappointing that Debian's > code of conduct and diversity statement do not explicitly reflect this idea. > > Michael Shigorin is a textbook example of how this works. He pretends to be > offended by Steve's harsh but accurate[0] words, and yet he is the one who has > successfully prevented[1] the Linux Vacation Eastern Europe conference from > endorsing a code of conduct in 2020 (warning: this and some other emails on > that list are filled with racist, sexist, ableist, homophobic, and transphobic > slurs and dogwhistles). > > [0] In 2012, I blocked Shigorin on Google+ after he tried to spread the > anti-Semitic "Protocols of Elders of Zion" conspiracy theory in comments on my > posts. > > [1] https://lists.lvee.org/pipermail/talks/2020-July/012461.html > > As a result of Shigorin's anti-tolerance crusade, references to the code of > conduct were pulled from the LVEE 2020 announcement, discriminatory behavior > continued to proliferate in the conference's mailing list and Telegram chat, > some people openly declared unwillingness to participate in a conference > without a code of conduct[2], some (including myself, the founder of the > conference) quietly backed away. > > [2] https://lists.lvee.org/pipermail/talks/2020-August/012599.html > > In full accordance with the predictions of the paradox of tolerance, LVEE > community has become less tolerant, less inclusive, more openly dominated > by bigots, and, ironically but not suprisingly, less civil. > > > > > Asking everyone to try remaining civilized when they interact is not an > > > > attempt to invalidate what you could say or think, or to criticize you > > > > as a person especially since you're not specifically targeted. > > "Civilized" is a loaded and ambiguous term, let's not use it in this context. > Other emails in this thread offer a fine example of how its use can take a > conversation about communication in an irrelevant and divisive direction. > > > A big over a year ago I got "warned" by the CT, DAM, and listmasters (which > > in turn forced me to resign from the CT after I had successfully resisted a > > months-long campaign from the acting DPL to remove me from that post by > > sheer bullying force) because I told an outspoken transphobe to "fuck off to > > the sea" [sic]. > > > > My harsh and very very naughty words certainly do not fit in a civilised > > community, but these bigots still roam free and continue to participate in > > the project every day: you just need to go see the web archives for > > debian-vote. The people that drove me out of Debian (did I mention I made a > > bingo card?) are all there very vocally defending a dude who spent all his > > social capital in defending the theoretical rights of a convicted paedophile > > and who routinely makes creepy advances on young women to the point that he > > usually has handlers to prevent him from embarrassing a prominent > > non-profit. > > > > And I am sure now to receive more private email from the very same people. > > People I consider kind and good, that I used to respect and hold in high > > regard, but that to this day still cannot see the difference between being > > rude and defending yourself from actual fucking fascists. > > > > PS: yes, I said fuck, repeatedly; fight me. > > This is a very disturbing story, and I don't mean your choice of language. > > The requirement to keep all conversations within the project "civil" to the > exclusion of all other considerations (representation and lack thereof, power > inequity, real-world consequences of political speech, etc.) is not going to > salvage the illusion that it is possible to have constructive collaboration > between marginalized people and, for the lack of more accurate yet less naughty > term, actual fucking fascists. > > Maintaining this illusion is hurting the marginalized people, the privileged > people with enough empathy to recognize that hurt, and our entire community. I > don't see how that harm can be addressed without some carefully considered > amount of intolerance of prejudice. Nowhere did I say that Michael Shigorin deserves any consideration. And I actually think Steve's private answer was perfectly fine with me. My point is that it is not tone-policing to ask people to de-escalate (should the fist fight have arisen in public). This doesn't mean we should tolerate people expressing fascist ideas or having unacceptable behaviours, but rather that we have defined procedures and ways to get rid of them (like banning them from our lists, or when the person is a Debian Member, resorting to the Community Team and DAM to handle the situation), and we'd rather see these methods employed. Being intolerant with intolerants is not my issue here. It's the fist fight which is. Because it creates a violent atmosphere which will outlive the intolerants long after we got rid of them. And they know that. And that's part of why we have so much trolls coming to urinate in our garden. Because as soon as we lose temper, they know they have an impact and therefore leverage on us. Public behaviour is something that leaves traces far longer than what one would hope for/expect. And this should not be forgotten. Of course no one is forced to agree, but it looks as a good compromise, to me. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for principles than to live up to them.
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