Re: Should the weboob package stay in Debian?
No need to cc me. I am subscribed to the list.
I proofread this message several times as it is important to me to make
it clear as best I can. It may still have typos or syntax mistakes.
Ian Jackson - 23.07.18, 20:43:
> Martin Steigerwald writes ("Re: Should the weboob package stay in
> Debian?"):
> > It would be good if women involved in the Debian project would speak
> > up here.
>
> Many people have already explained why this is difficult.
I admit I did not read the full thread.
> But it is not necessary to have personal testimony for each question
> of this kind. The kind of problem the web-oob package has is, sadly,
I agree with that.
> So we can read what women (and their allies) have written on this. A
> good place to start is often the Geek Feminism Wiki. I looked there
> and found this:
> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Sexualized_environment
Thanks for pointing me to this resource. I think I have read in it
before. I read the page you have mentioned and some others.
Appreciating the beauty of women, and men! and any human being
regardless of gender identity, or even a flower or animal is one thing.
I have no issue with that.
What women wrote on the page you mentioned is something else. And what
from what I read here upstream developers do with the weboob project is
also something else. I see no appreciation for the beauty of women in
the way how weboob developers name the binaries.
> > Of course I understand any hesitance to do so. I felt hesitance
> > myself often enough, even as what is usually called male.
>
> I am reliably informed that things are *much* worse if your online
> presence looks female. I haven't tried the experiment.
I did and still do it. For privacy reasons I omit details here.
> > What would be required to help women to feel more comfortable to
> > post
> > their opinion on this mailing list?
>
> If we would send police to arrest the people who send "women with
> opinions" death and rape threats, or doxx them, etc. ? This is not
> within Debian's gift. But, we can stop making the problem worse by
> perpetuating cultural practices which devalue women.
So this is more about reactions from people who read this mailing list
or may be pointed to this thread, but are not necessarily members of or
contributors to the Debian project?
My question was more aimed what members of or contributors to the Debian
project can do to improve the current situation, cause as you say Debian
that means the people behind it cannot control what is happening outside
of it.
Of course this does not make those threats any better or any less
harmful. But to improve the current situation within the project, in
case it needs improvement, which I bet it still does, may help to
provide at least some sense of safety and security for women.
> > So what concrete steps would help to start shifting that in the
> > direction of more respect between the different genders?
>
> I don't agree with this "bothsidesism". The problem here is the
> oppression of women, by, mostly, men. There is not any significant
> amount of oppression of men by women.
From my own experience I do not agree with that. Oppression of men by
women may not be that visible, may be more subtle and (probably by far)
not that wide-spread, but I have experienced it personally. For reasons
to protect my own privacy and safety I do not share the details of that
experience here on this list.
Also I recently just read an article from a woman about dating men and
had the impression that there was a lot of hatred and objectification
towards men in it. I understood where it came from as I read from past
experiences of that woman with dating, but still, I did not feel
respected as one most would call a man, after reading that article.
So from my experience it is not as simple as black and white. Also not
from what I heard or read, even from women.
But it does not matter any way. Whatever anyone else does cannot justify
or make appropriate or not appropriate what I do. So whether women
oppress men or not cannot make what weboob upstream developers do any
more appropriate or not appropriate.
It even does not matter who started the violence or who did more or who
did less. What matters is to end it. Step by step.
> What concrete steps, you ask ? Well, we could start by removing
> gratuitous sexual references from software which has nothing to do
> with sex.[1]
I fully agree with that.
> We could also stop producing absurd (and readily and frequently
> debunked) counterarguments to explain why this isn't a problem, or why
> doing anything about it would lead inevitably to awful censorship,
> etc. (FAOD I'm not really referring to your messages here, but there
> have been some truly silly examples in this thread.)
I feel no intention to produce such counterarguments.
> Thanks for your attention.
You are welcome.
> [1]
>
> [content warning: sexual references]
>
> The point "nothing to do with sex" is very important. I would love
[…]
--
Martin
Reply to: