Re: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system
On February 18, 2015 7:54:00 AM EST, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl@lkcl.net> wrote:
>On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 12:27 AM, Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org>
>wrote:
>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:52:21PM +0000, Luke Kenneth Casson
>Leighton wrote:
>>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 10:52 PM, Josh Triplett
><josh@joshtriplett.org> wrote:
>>
>>> > So, please go educate yourself on what libsystemd0 actually does,
>>
>>> i know what it does, and what it does - technically - is *not* the
>>> issue that i am concerned about.
>>
>> And that is why you'll find little interest here in entertaining your
>> argument. You have *not* presented any evidence that Debian is
>technically
>> worse off as a result of packages depending on libsystemd0.
>
> that's right - i haven't. because (a) i have complete confidence in
>your technical abilities, as a group. i wouldn't use debian
>otherwise! :) and (b) this isn't a technical issue, it's a strategic
>one.
>
> so, the gist is: debian developers make decisions primarily based on
>technical merit (almost exclusively), disregarding strategic issues
>(almost exclusively). would that be a fairly broad but accurate
>assessment? (thank you to everyone else who has chipped in, i read a
>couple of other messages from people which point in a similar
>direction)
>
> a couple of things occur to me.
>
> firstly, when i was last in holland i was working for NC3A, some kind
>person referred me to an obscure book called "The Strategy-focussed
>Organisation". very intelligent guy, who had actually read it... i
>don't recommend reading all of it cover-to-cover, and neither did he
>:)
>
> he pointed out to me the one key question is that when it comes to
>the strategy (direction, focus) of any organisation, the question "why
>should we care what anyone else is doing?" is *the* most important one
>you can possibly ask. why - when you, the debian developers, are
>doing such a fantastic job (really and sincerely) - should you care
>when someone from *outside* of your group jumps up and down and says
>"uhh... guuuys?"
>
> i invite you to think seriously about that, ok? (because i don't
>have an answer!!)
>
> the second thing - and i'm taking a huge risk here by using the
>example that i'm about to share with you; please DO NOT think for ONE
>SECOND that you are being ACCUSED of anything, ok? i'm using this
>example because i believe it will get through to you with enough
>clarity. i DO NOT want to hear ANYONE say "god almighty, did he
>_really_ just accuse us of being horrible people by association", ok?
>
> do you know what the world's most authoritative medical texts are on
>the subject of pain? pain thresholds, tolerance, stress levels and so
>on? it's the documentation that the nazis made during their reign.
>horrifyingly, they were *genuinely curious*, but, unlike other groups
>who have tortured other humans, they meticulously documented all of
>their work.
>
> why am i mentioning this example? because, *technically*, the nazis
>documentation of their work is sufficiently flawless as to be of
>extremely high *technical* value in the medical world, even today.
>
> ... but does that mean that *strategically* they should even have
>been doing that research in the first place? does the *technical*
>quality of their work justify their torturing and murdering of other
>human beings, just to see what happened?? of *course* it f*****g well
>doesn't!
>
> so this extreme example should, i believe, serve as an extremely
>graphic illustration that, in any group, technical decisions need to
>be guided by some sort of.... moral and/or strategic compass. not
>that i claim to be an authority on either [1].
>
>would you agree with that? i mean the moral and strategic compass
>bit, not my claim to not be an authority on moral compasses :)
>
>l.
>
>[1] please don't say i am claiming to tell you what to do, therefore
>you have the right to ignore it. as a group you keep doing that, and i
>keep having to tell you i'm not, and it's getting really, really old.
The comparison drawn in this message is indicative of both a stunning lack of perspective and a stunning ignorance of history. Please go learn some history and ponder how ridiculous this is.
Once Godwin's law is fulfilled, the thread is over and whoever did it lost.
Stop.
I'd ask our listmasters to enforce this if needed.
Scott K
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