Re: sysvinit is still here, and here to stay for jessie (was Re: systemd is here to stay, get over it now)

[The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm>]

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On 07/04/2014 11:28 AM, Matthias Urlichs wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Adam Borowski:
>> There was enough trouble when udev needed an in-lockstep upgrade with the
>> kernel a few releases back.  If systemd components are going to need such
>> forced reboots on a repeated basis, I don't like where this is going.
>> 
> systemd and its components can re-exec themselves, that's not the problem.
> 
> The problem is that along with systemd we're changing a lot of the
> supporting infrastructure ("we" here is Upstream, for the most part).
> 
> Keeping old low-level interfaces around just to avoid logging out or
> rebooting may or may not be something we can do easily. While I'll
> certainly be happy to be able to dist-upgrade without a subsequent reboot,
> if it turns out that this is not going to be easy to achieve then so be it.
> 
> For Zurg (Jessie+1),

Has that name actually been formalized in any way? I still like it, but
last I heard it wasn't officially anything more than a misunderstanding
and a joke.

> we're likely to switch to Wayland. How do you plan to do *that*
> without forcing at least a re-login?

It seems unlikely that that "switch" will involve removing X entirely,
since many things will still rely on X, even if the X they rely on ends
up getting run nested inside of Wayland (as I believe is a supported
scenario, exactly for backwards-compatibility reasons).

As such, anything that relies on X should still be able to keep working,
as long as the existing X session continues running. It's just that
anything that relies on Wayland won't be able to work until the restart
is done.

- From my perspective, that's perfectly acceptable; everything that was
working before continues to work, but you don't get the new
functionality until you restart.


If that's *not* the case - if things that rely on X will break, or (more
likely) if some of the things which people use will be upgraded from
versions which rely on X to versions which rely on Wayland - then at the
very least a pre-upgrade warning should be provided, with the
opportunity to cancel / postpone the upgrade.

One of the things people have been asking for, when it comes to systemd,
is such a warning in the form of a debconf prompt; however, there seems
to be resistance to that idea, and indeed I'm not sure it hasn't been
outright rejected.

- --
   The Wanderer

Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
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