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Re: systemd and Linux are *fundamentally incompatible* -> and I can prove it

On 25 March 2014 11:25, William Unruh <unruh@physics.ubc.ca> wrote:
> And if they are there, together with all the boldfacing, people tend to
> think that you are a complete kook. So you makes your choices...

Okay, my apologies.

I am not very experienced with lists and the expectations that run within them.

Here is a plaintext version stripped of asterisks.

I do think the arrows help though.



To all debian developers:

-> systemd is fundamentally incompatible with linux

Now, I realize that's a bold claim, but if you are up for some reading, I
will prove it.

First -> a little history just to put this into a context that's easier to

Over a year ago (Nov 2012), I tried to warn you that systemd was a
disaster in progress.

It started out over a discussion about udev, and some of the reasons people
were giving for using systemd seemed to be woefully naive.

I tried to explain this simple point at first, but it became increasingly
evident that -> none of the people who were advocating systemd -> because
they claimed it would solve certain problems -> seemed to understand what
systemd would do to linux

So, I took some of the problems systemd was supposed to fix, and wrote a
response that primarily did three things.

1 -> explain why linux had certain mechanisms, and what would happen if
you removed them

2 -> show how those problems could be solved without stripping out very
important pieces of the architecture (which systemd would do, knowingly or

3 -> the most important one -> probe how much the systemd people really
understood about what they were doing to the rest of linux

Now, I'm sure many people will jump on that last one right there and
declare -> how can you possibly judge what they understand if you don't
understand it yourself?!!

And this is how...

There is a well known saying that runs in every engineering discipline,
including software engineering...

 -> if you can't put it in writing, then you don't understand it well enough

Einstein had another version...

 -> if you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough

So, I presented a series of technical questions, that I asked to be
answered without references for me to go read documentation.

Those questions are not there because I'm clueless as to how systemd

Those questions are there to see if anyone (including systemd people) had
any clue how systemd would interoperate with -> the rest of linux.

And I got my answer.

 -> nope

I even said -> the point of this post was to see if these questions
could be answered -> because if they couldn't -> that was a very strong
signal that they didn't understand it

And I got several responses, many of them saying I was...

 -> ignorant

 -> unhelpful

 -> wasting everyone's time because I didn't read the documentation

 -> weird (lol)

 -> and in some places elsewhere over the internet -> autistic

I even went to Lennart Poettering's google+ page and ....

 -> tried to warn everyone there that systemd was headed for failure

 -> asked Poettering (in a different way) if he could answer what role
systemd was to serve in linux

I said -> I have a question for you. If you can answer it with one, and
ONLY one, concept that describes fully what systemd is I will consider I
might have misjudged this.

He replied...

 -> systemd is a suite of basic building blocks to build an OS from

Okay -> right there he gives two important pieces of information...

1 -> there is nothing about how it works with linux

2 -> his answer is so vague, it should tell you he hasn't really thought
this out

systemd will wreck linux, I am certain of it.

Without some kind of design blueprint of some sort -> systemd ended up
being built by programming blindly in the dark.

There is no boundary where systemd stops and linux begins.

They will keep on absorbing pieces of linux until systemd is the entire
operating system -> and there is no coherent design to how it does / should

I think everyone here knows how this is going to end.

I tried to get this point across back in Nov 2012 -> however, I don't think
systemd caused enough chaos back then to really register with people what
was coming their way.

Now that systemd has wrecked all kinds of previously working stuff, and
many are beginning to realize the impossibility of getting systemd to
work with linux -> I think this might have some effect this time around.

  -> Debian needs to cut all ties to systemd

It is not possible to save it unless a design blueprint for how it
works with linux can be expressed in writing -> and I seriously doubt
anyone can (I sure as hell can't).

 -> revert every program systemd took over to its pre-systemd state

 -> cut your losses while you still can technically achieve a reversion

While systemd might one day work flawlessly on its own -> it has
absolutely no business being in linux.

And you might ask -> why did I put this on the debian list? This clearly
applies to all of linux...

 -> because out of any linux distro that stands a reasonable chance to
undo the systemd nightmare -> debian is the most visible -> and other
distros are more likely to follow your lead than any other distro that
might change

If you think I am wrong -> let's settle the debate, once and for all.

If systemd can work with linux -> these questions can be answered.

 -> https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/11/msg00563.html (look for
'?' to spot them)

For concrete reasoning on why systemd is a disaster...

 -> https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/11/msg00604.html

 -> https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/11/msg00617.html

 -> https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/11/msg00624.html

And for those looking to follow everything I said back in Nov 2012...

 -> https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/11/author2.html#00469

And now for the alarmist and overly dramatic conclusions.....

Sorry for the intrusion into your world, but this needed to be said, and
needed to be said on this specific list.

 -> the future of linux actually does depend on what -> you <- do here

Debian is a big name, and other distros are likely to follow your lead if
you break away from systemd. All it takes is for one domino to fall here to
set off a chain reaction to free linux from this madness.

I don't think Red Hat or Ubuntu are capable of starting this process
(there's too much corporate / monetary control over them), so Debian,
you're it.

systemd is turning linux into a dysfunctional and useless operating system
-> we have to remove it.

I know it will take a crap ton of work to remove systemd from debian (and
linux in general), but systemd is terminal. If you don't, there is no
future for you.


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