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Re: your mail

On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 03:10:08PM -0300, Humberto Massa scribbled:
> @ 01/06/2004 14:43 : wrote Marek Habersack :
> >On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 12:32:10PM -0300, Humberto Massa scribbled:
> >[snip]
> > 
> >
> <lots of stuff, I won't go one by one (I agree with you in many things)>
> (the numbering is new, unrelated to the other post)
> 1. I did not called for your expulsion from Debian. Only under the most 
> extreme circumstances I would do such a radical and harmful thing.
Glad to hear that :)

> 2. I do think integrity is Debian (and /ALL/ of the DDs) upholding 
> whatever is in www.d.o, 'cause they (DDs) have the power to change 
> what's written there.
But what changing would take place if everybody believed firmly and
doubtlessly in what's written there? You need doubts and questions to
achieve any changes.

> 3. I wasn't defending anyone (JW or else) but I do think better "levels" 
> of communication are achieved when we try not to offend people.
Oh, I fully agree, but as I said before - when kicked, I kick back and
that's not going to change :)

> 3a. This and I missed the post where he acused you of being high.
> 3b. But even so, I would ask you (and you had the right to deny me) to 
> let him be wrong alone (and not join him in his wrong-ness).
Before you join Debian, Humberto, buy a flameproof jacket :) I doubt that's
going to change (and good, it would be boring otherwise, if only the flames
had more substance and brought more conclusions :)

> 4. My (current) interpretation of Free Software is the DFSG. (If you 
> grep miname in d-l@, you'll see that my interpretation is even more lax 
> than that of most there).
> 4a. The tentative DFSGv2 is a good start IMHO. It's more clear to 
> outsiders to understand, and consolidates a lot of "DFSG case law".
Good, let's see what comes out of it.

> 5. (there, back to the beginning) Yes, we can disagree. If and when 
> /most/ DDs disagree with me, I'll leave. Until there, I want to 
That's the thing - you do not have to leave just because you differ. That's
what they call coexistence (add a pinch of tollerance there, too). Ever
watch the Discovery Channel? They have excellent ads that promote diversity
and preservation of languages/cultures that can be extinct. They say
something like "discovering cultures, applaud diversity". It makes a lot of
sense when you think of it.

> cooperate. I want to contribute. Cooperate with / contribute to the 
> stuff that's (currently) stated in www.d.o.
What if the statement changes? Will you still believe in it so firmly no
matter what it says? What if I came to Debian liking the fact that it had
the non-free section and, while I am a DD, the section is removed by vote. I
belong to the minority that voted against removing it and suddenly I find
myself at the position where I do not agree with everything that's stated on
www.d.o. What then?

> 5a. Hence my attempts to contribute here and at d-l@, as my skills permit.
It's always a great thing to have somebody contributing to Debian. Even if
some people (I'm not talking about you, of course) contribute in a "bad"
way, their contribution is valuable too. I personally think that bad things
happening have more value than the good ones - that's because you learn more
from failures than from successes... But learning from failures requires
being able to admit that you failed and, IMO, that attitude is what some
folks in the free software movement lack.

> 6. I believe in Free Software (as defined above). More, as RMS does, I 
> believe proprietary software is a social problem. I believe the current 
not more than proprietery car, house, garden, song etc. Utopia doesn't
really exist and never existed, you know...

> model of comercialization of proprietary software is a scam, with few 
> exceptions.
Do you know what I find more disturbing? The lack of responsibility of
software makers - _both_ commercial and free. Although the latter, in
general, are way more responsible (as a whole).

> 6a. AutoCAD and MSWord are explicitly excluded from those few 
> exceptions, for the record.
> 7. Please don't fight me. I want to constructively exchange arguments 
> and build towards some consensus (beautiful, uh?). I  don't fight.
I'm not fighting you :) - I'm discussing something with you and shuffling
arguments back and forth. Don't attach too many emotions to what you read,
just take the information from the text.

> 8. Please forgive me if anything I wrote can be construed as patronizing 
> or otherwise diminishing you. If it happens, it's completely 
> (non-native-English-speaker-wise) accidental.
Don't worry, one of the things I've learned with Debian was precisely a way
to look at what people say from a different angle. I didn't feel patronized
or diminished,



p.s. do you have a thing with numbered lists? :)

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