Re: [desktop] Seeking Summit to Discuss X Display and Session Management
Branden,
Aside from the side issues, "User friendliness" and "consistent
feel about configuration approach" are my central issues.
On Tue, Nov 12, 2002 at 05:28:54AM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote:
> [Please mind the To/CC lines in your replies; debian-x sees mail sent to
> the bugnumber. I'm not subscribed to any of the lists in my CC line.
> Except for -devel, of course.]
Thank you getting annoyed enough to spend time on this issue.
> [Everyone except Osamu Aoki may want to read the bottom of this mail
> first. Alternatively, see <http://bugs.debian.org/168347>.]
Make sure to read my immediate follow-up to (Initial report had stupid
mistakes.)
And the original bug report for this thread
<http://bugs.debian.org/168601> too.
> On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 11:43:03AM -0800, Osamu Aoki wrote:
> > File: /etc/X11/Xsession.d/50xfree86-common_determine-startup
> >
> > Issues:
> > 1) Full path was not given for REALSTARTUP (Just to be safe side)
>
> I don't understand what you mean by this.
>
> REALSTARTUP, in the stock version of the script, can only be either
> $STARTUP or $ALTSTARTUP; both are defined as full paths in
> /etc/X11/Xsession.
Yes. There was my confusion here. (Who else would write a broken file
as a initial proposed patch file). It is a long story why I confused.
Well so be it. (For my old eye, all these similar variable names was
problem.) My apology.
> Of course, people can edit the conffiles to change (break) this.
Thank you reminding me about conffile. But let's not do it.
Let's think why you made /etc/X11/Xsession.options in your script
structure and let people configure /etc/X11/Xsession without directly
editing it?
> > 2) If x-session-manager is installed on the system, it gets quite
> > intrusive to make one of the x-window-manager as the system default
> > (I like blackbox but want to have some accounts with KDE or GNOME.)
>
> I don't know what's intrusive about changing three lines in a conffile.
Well for some user customizations, you provide nice and less intrusive
configuration for people who can not understand script like me through
/etc/X11/Xsession.options file.
> The default system policy should reflect the needs of most of the users
> on the system. (Or the needs of the "most important" users if you have
> a caste system on a multiuser machine.)
Yes.. I agree.
> If nobody on the system even needs GNOME or KDE, why have them
> installed?
What if the "most important" users prefers blackbox for the speed
but he may wants to have a separate user account to be in touch with
GNOME and KDE. Do not you want them to be able to install all the
packages while setting blackbox as the default WM without "intrusive"
editing?
I am not asking you to change the way you want X to be started as the
default but I am asking to enable very simple change to accommodate some
other people's wish without letting them to play with your script. I
want the choice be enabled through /etc/X11/Xsession.options.
If you have this type of entry with corresponding change in
/etc/X11/Xsession, no one needs to read into your fine pun parts script
to configure X starting process.
> > 3) If alternative system is broken (as I did recently),
>
> If the alternative system is broken, fix it (if you messed it up) or
> file a bug (if a Debian package messed it up).
It was broken on my recent system. My point was alternative is fragile
system.
> The alternatives system is an important system resource; it is provided
> by an Essential package (dpkg) and it needs to be operational, just as
> we'd expect dpkg, sh, or the dynamic loader to be operational.
I admit you have some point here. My thinking was "it does not hurt
having extra back-up plan." Oh, well.
> > fall-back scenario is weak. (Let's fall-back to twm or xterm to
> > make people aware there is life beyond GNOME and KDE. Both xterm
> > and twm are in your associated packages).
>
> 1) That's exactly what happens if these packages are installed, and if
> the alternatives system isn't "broken".
Oh, I see that was it.
> 2) twm and xterm should not enjoy a privileged status.
Do not you feel like saying, "hey GNOME, you screwed up. I give you
twm, have fun :-)"
> 3) One of the motivations behind "x-session-manager" is to illustrate
> the converse point: there is life beyond twm and xterm.
Yes but they clutter small screen too much on my small screen. I do not
think my feeling is alone. When I can get UXGA with 40 inch screen,
I will agree with you. I want the application which I am using takes
maximum possible screen real estate, not the menu-bars and drop down
menus on my X. I still do not understand why there is so many menus and
icons on the screen. (I am OK with session manager concept.)
> > 4) Hello, Branden. I am brave enough to write a section for quick
> > start-up guide for X in my "Debian Reference". Windows manager
> > set-up was one of the challenging one and I want my life to be easy
> > :-) (I still have to add/correct few things in there. This is
> > solicitation of constructive flame.) Latest CVS build are:
> >
> > http://qref.sf.net/Debian/reference/ch-tune.en.html#s-x
>
> I don't have time to review this at the moment, but I'll see if I can
> check it out at some point in the near future.
Thank you. Maybe, just for that, it was worth my report :-)
> > Please consider replacing 50xfree86-common_determine-startup with
> > something like attached file and update /etc/X11/Xsession.options
> > accordingly as attached file. (Oops, I do not have manual page)
>
> Until you can address the points above, I won't be.
I tried.
> However, since you're not the only person who is apparently aggravated
> out of his mind with the current approach (Eduard Bloch seldom misses an
> opportunity to be abusive to me regarding my conffiles), perhaps the
> best thing to do is to arrange a summit among all the package
> maintainers of desktop environments and display managers in Debian (maybe
> a few window manager maintainers, too).
I got a nice ping from him. Yeh, he is watching you.
Anyway, What you propose is great. Go Branden! Consistency!
> Just as you are irritated that 50xfree86-common_determine-startup
> doesn't work the way you want it to by default, I am annoyed that at
> least some of the other display managers (gdm, kdm, wdm) do not use
> /etc/X11/Xsession by default, which leads to an inconsistent user
> experience.
That is bad. "Consistency" and cooperation are the key here.
xterms started by the menu are another consistency issues. Debian
should standardize how xterms are started. I am not taking either
login-shell or not. But it is switch-able by a single file for all menu
started terminals, life is much easier. No more guessing and checking.
> So, shall we all get together on IRC sometime and hash this out, so that
> we can have something that everyone is happier with for the sarge
> release? Once we have hammered something out, we can make it Policy.
> To that end, I've CCed a couple of mailing lists and a few package
> maintainers. Oh yeah, the Debian Desktop Project probably wants to be
> involved as well. :) If I have overlooked anyone, please convey my
> invitation to this (currently unscheduled) summit.
Please establish consistent environment set-up across system while
accommodating different types of taste as much as possible.
Expand on /etc/X11/Xsession.options type of centralized simple
configuration.
Thanks.
--
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Osamu Aoki <osamu@debian.org> Cupertino CA USA, GPG-key: A8061F32
.''`. Debian Reference: post-installation user's guide for non-developers
: :' : http://qref.sf.net and http://people.debian.org/~osamu
`. `' "Our Priorities are Our Users and Free Software" --- Social Contract
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