Sorry for my late reply, but I have been busy I just skipped the long
mails, but this is really well written and show a good sense of
understanding about where it actually goes about. Something like this
is very nice comparing to the rest of the thread. :)
I think it's too philosophical for Debian; most of them are part of
the open source movement and want to avoid talking about freedom,
philosophy and ideology. It's for this reasons, and other reasons,
that I'm going out of Debian and help GNU.
On Sat, May 18, 2002 at 11:01:59AM -0500, Timothy Rue wrote:
> On 18-May-02 07:03:51 Jeroen Dekkers <jeroen@dekkers.cx> wrote:
> JD> It's more directed to the cabals in Debian. I know a lot of
> JD> package maintainers are willing to help the Hurd port, but it's
> JD> made impossible by small group of people who don't want to
> JD> cooperate. And if you say something about it, it's always your
> JD> fault and not theirs, because they think that they are holy and
> JD> don't make mistakes, you are just a fool wasting their time. And
> JD> that is just the way the Hurd port is treated in Debian.
>
> Funny, a good bit of the above sounds like what I got in #hurd And perhaps
> even elesewhere much closer to the hurd home.
Do you mean that you've seen people saying this in #hurd? That's
possible.
<snip>
> Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't FSF, GNU and GPL all about freedom and
> don't these stand above debian in the "what is responsible for the
> existance of the other". Not to mention the Hurd being the official GNU
> core.
>
> Maybe this matter needs a bit of RMS input?
This is true, that's why I'm going to help GNU. We (that means I, RMS
and a bunch of other people) already know how the GNU system should
look like.
> But back to basics is probably what is really needed as I've seen alot
> lately that is so disconnected from the basics that it seems to be a
> trend. I.E. "do you think lying is OK?" is a basic question with a simple
> yes or no answer but looking at microsofts crap in the courts this is a
> basic principle that doesn't appear to exist at all anymore. And that is
> constipation serious. Maybe MS has also infilterated Debian, as they have
> elsewhere?
This question deserved the topic in #hurd. :-)
And before finishing this mail:
< jlj> MS infiltrating Debian? They surely named that operation
'Enduring Freedom' :-)
> If debian is really becomming a dictator like organization then how about
> an option that gets back to the basics of what FSF, GNU and GPL are all
> about? Certainly there were alot of people who joined Debain based upon
> such basic principles and who would seek the same now.
This is the logical step what will happen if nothing changes.
> Anyone for Freedom? Or is this going to become like constantly batteling
> for your privacy, because the politicians are being bought off by the
> corporations who want to sell your personal info? A never ending battle?
>
> Personally I don't consider constantly batteling, to be a freedom from
> such time wasting conflictions dis-ease.
>
> The Hurd allows for, or is to, choice and co-existance of differences,
> does it not?
>
> Simple answer: Yes or No?
Yes, but reinventing the wheel is useless. But looking at this thread
and discussion on IRC, it's unavoidable I've to start my own
distribution.
> From the Users point of view (be it developer user or newbie end usr and
> all inbetween):
>
> In the Science of Computing (as opposed to the politics of computing)
> there are three primary user interfaces (not so unlike the having three
> primary colors from which you can make up all other colors). Nature seems
> to love "3 primaries".
<snip>
Thanks for the lesson.
> Having these three user interfaces available in a reasonable and useable
> manner is prerequsite to the development of an autocoding environment.
> http://www.ai.mit.edu/~gregs/ll1-discuss-archive-html/msg01363.html
With the start of the GNU project it was decided that C and LISP would
be the 2 languages of the GNU system would be written in, but that
doesn't mean we shouldn't make it possible to use other languages.
> Put another way: Refering to RMS, FSF, GNU and the GPL. Just how far does
> freedom go if it doesn't include the typical computer end user in a usable
> and reasonable manner to them? At this point in time, none of these
> support typical end user freedoms.
>
> To reach this goal of genuine computer user freedom, all three user
> interfaces being available to the typical user is a pre-reqisite.
>
> This is where the Hurd comes in. It's why the hurd is important and it
> needs to be made clear to all those involved in the GNU effort.
I can only agree. :)
> About the so called "cabals":
>
> cabal: 1. a small group of plotters, esp. against a government. 2. the
> plotting of such a group. 3. a clique
>
> This random house dictionary definition sounds like it's talking about
> morons promoting it's set of constraints via the illision of constraint
> removal of others.
>
> But thru further investigation of this word and it's evolution and
> variations, it seems that there is some focus around "creation" and the
> process of it. http://www.ritmanlibrary.nl/kabb37.jpg
>
> The cabals don't have the exclusive on cabala.
From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.44 [gcide]:
Usage: {Cabal}, {Combination}, {Faction}. An association for
some purpose considered to be bad is the idea common
to these terms. A combination is an organized union of
individuals for mutual support, in urging their
demands or resisting the claims of others, and may be
good or bad according to circumstances; as, a
combiniation of workmen or of employers to effect or
to prevent a change in prices. A cabal is a secret
association of a few individuals who seek by cunning
practices to obtain office and power. A faction is a
larger body than a cabal, employed for selfish
purposes in agitating the community and working up an
excitement with a view to change the existing order of
things. ``Selfishness, insubordination, and laxity of
morals give rise to combinations, which belong
particularly to the lower orders of society. Restless,
jealous, ambitious, and little minds are ever forming
cabals. Factions belong especially to free
governments, and are raised by busy and turbulent
spirits for selfish purposes''. --Crabb.
> Freedom to create....As I See Fit to do for myself.
>
> Isn't this what the All of GNU is supposed to be about?
True.
Jeroen Dekkers
--
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