Re: request to kill nag messages
On Wed, 19 May 1999, Christian Kurz wrote:
> [You don't need to send me an extra Cc as I read the lists on which I
> write. Thanks!]
>
> Dale Scheetz <dwarf@polaris.net> wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 May 1999, Christian Kurz wrote:
>
> > > Branden Robinson <branden@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:
> > > > On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 03:32:20PM -0400, shaleh@clifford.livenet.net wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not the only one to be annoyed at the nag messages that are sent out.
> > > > > > Can the script please be disabled. There are better ways to find out bugs
> > > > > > you have open. Long-standing bugs are likely to be less important than
> > > > > > recent bugs too.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I would rather see the old bugs closed. An old bug is still a bug.
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't like the messages, help close the bugs.
> > >
> > > > Wrong. Brian White is no longer the release manager, so he has no special
> > > > privilege to send mails like this.
> > >
> > > Oh, does somebody need a special privilege to tell us which general bugs
> > > are too old and need to be resolved? I don't think so.
>
> > No one needs to take on that job, as the BTS already reports all open bugs
> > twice a week to every developer.
>
> Are you sure? I don't know that this is done by the BTS and have never
> heard about this?
Here is a sample of the beggining of what I normally get on Tuesdays:
---------------------------------begin paste---------------------
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 16:29:46 -0500
From: Debian Bug Tracking System <owner@bugs.debian.org>
To: debian-bugs-reports@lists.debian.org
Subject: Unanswered problem reports by maintainer and package
Resent-Date: 4 May 1999 21:30:06 -0000
Resent-From: debian-bugs-reports@lists.debian.org
Resent-cc: recipient list not shown: ;
The following problem reports have not yet been marked as `taken up' by a
message to done@bugs.debian.org or or `forwarded' by a
message to forwarded@bugs.debian.org.
-------------------------------end paste----------------------
Note that this is a subscription list, so you must request placement on
this "automated" report generator.
On Friday the report is ordered differently, and can be grepped for your
name to separate out your own bugs from all the rest.
You can also request limited reports on your own. Send the word help in
the body of a message to request@bugs.debian.org and you will get a list
of all the commands that the request server responds to. Among them are
requests for indexes by package, or by maintainer. You can then take these
indexes and request the actual bug report itself.
>
> > If this was simply a report to the list, once in a while, like the
> > "critical bugs that need to be fixed" list, there would be no problem.
> > Instead this mail is generated automatically and sent to every developer
> > with an open bug report over a certain age.
>
> Well what is the problem with this? I don't see any offence in getting a
> message that says that I (the maintainer) has still open bug over a
> certain age. I think this is a good reminder for the maintainers as you
The problem is that I can not request that the messages stop, like I can
with this list, and the other BTS lists. Even aggressive, and angry
requests have met with rejection. This is, by definition, unwanted spam.
> may forget to fix bugs. Take a look at the ppp-package and how many open
> bugs there have been. The maintainer hadn't fixed them and so I helped
> him. (Sorry Phil, but this is a good example and No, I don't want to
> praise me with this). Or have you taken a look at the list on
> http://master.debian.org/~ajt/bugsbyage.txt? Have you seen how many open
> old bugs we got? How do you think we get this fixed without reminding
> the developers of their open bugs?
How do the nag messages to Phil help you know which of his bugs are in
need of repair.
Your idea that mainainers "forget" to fix a bug is simply FUD. Nobody
forgets a bug, they either don't have the time to figure out what is
wrong, or for what ever reason cannot put the manpower into solving the
problem. Under these conditions a NMU is very reasonable. I never turn
down such help, but what does this have to do with the nags?
You seem to have missed the point that, although some of the nags only go
to a mailing list, each maintainer also recieves his very own copy of the
nags for his packages. Until I complained loudly to Brian about not being
able to control the flood, he reduced these messages to only one per
maintainer. Previous to this, there was one message for each outstanding
bu you had in the system. When I was maintaining glibc this amounted to
hundreds of messages cluttering up my inbox. While reducing the number of
messages takes the "cost" load off of the maintainer, the fact that they
can not be stopped all together makes them nothing but spam.
>
> > > > This is no different from some "helpful" developer spamming people who,
> > > > say, have had bugs open for over a year. Such people have (rightly) come
> > > > under fire in the past.
> > >
> > > And what do you propose should be done with bugs that are so old? Still
> > > let them stay open and look somewhere else? No, that isn't a solution.
> > > The solution is to contact the developer and ask them about the bugs and
> > > try to track the problem down and fix the bug. This has nothing do to
> > > with spamming instead these are person, which are interested in
> > > improving th quality of the distribution.
> > >
> > This is not a "person" asking a developer to fix a bug. This is an
> > automated system that spits out messages with NO content of use to the
> > developer, and adds nothing but bulk to the already functional system.
>
> Where has the message no content? It tells you which bugs are very old
Telling me that there is an oustanding bug number 1234456 may have some
information content for the BTS database, but it has absolutely no meaning
until I track down the actual report. If these nags contained a patch, or
some other information relevant to the bug report there would be useful
information provided and I would probably not complain as loudly.
> and haven't been fixed, so you can take a look at them and fix them. And
> the point that this is an automated system doing this is IMHO no cause
> to treat them like spam. It's has been automated as a normal person
> can't to this on her own.
>
The BTS is also automated, but I have control over what it sends me, not
the automated program. That is what makes this spam and the other not.
> > This _is_ spam, and nothing more. Please be aware that any message with
> > the word "Nag" in the subject is always deleted and never read when sent
> > to me, so if you really want to contact me don't use that word ;-)
>
> Well, that's you problem, but better would be a kill on the From-Line
> instead of the Subject.
It is only "my problem" because I can not control the sender.
>
> > You aren't really suggesting that any "well meaning" person is correct to
> > set up an automated system for notifying developers about <place your
> > important issue here>, then you should not complain when some dodo sends
> > you, and the list, critical information about how to get rich quick. He is
> > only trying to be informative...
>
> Well, I don't like spam as it has nothing to do with my work or my
> hobby. But these messages are there for informing me, that I have open
> bugs and that I need to fix them. So it's a reminder for me as
> developer. Or how should we remind developer of their old bugs? Go by
> hand through the BTS and sort them out? Are you sure that every
> developer knows which open bugs he has and how old they are? I'm not and
> since the messages are not send every day or every week or every month
> but instead after a certain amount of time, more than 4 months, I don't
> treat them like spam.
If the messages inform you, then you should keep getting them. I should
also have the right to demand that they stop comming to my mail box.
The question is not "how should we remind developer of their old bugs".
Any developer can obtain that information on request from the BTS. The
question is: "Does any one developer have the right to force others to
accept nasty grams from an automated process, just because he doesn't
think that developer is acting in a responsible fashion.
This is just not the way things work here. If you think a package needs to
be fixed, and the maintainer hasn't fixed it, SUBMIT A PATCH, or do an
nmu, or offer to help. Poking the maintianer in the ribbs saying look at
this mess you have left lying around, is making a demand that he
reschedule time and get this done. This is not appropriate interaction for
a volunteer opperation. I was never employed by Brian, yet he felt he
could treat me like a corporate grunt, whose effort must be directed by
management. It simply makes me want to puke.
Luck,
Dwarf
--
_-_-_-_-_- Author of "The Debian Linux User's Guide" _-_-_-_-_-_-
aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (850) 656-9769
Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road
e-mail: dwarf@polaris.net Tallahassee, FL 32308
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