Re: RH and GNOME
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On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Enrique Zanardi wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 04:27:46AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> > The more arguments like this that I hear, the more convinced I
> > get that we have become too popular.
> >
> > >>"Petra," == Petra, Kevin J Poorman <ewigin@SoftHome.net> writes:
> >
> > Petra,> Forgive me for being frank, and don't get me wrong I'm all
> > Petra,> for debian. but these "selling points" are not selling points
> > Petra,> at all, and won't mean jack in the long run. Corparations
> > Petra,> will look and say, hum a package put together, by a company,
> > Petra,> or the same package put together by a group of
> > Petra,> vollenteers. uh, the vollenteers could have sabotauged the
> > Petra,> package... nope, gonna go with the one I can sue. ... (Not
> > Petra,> saying that anyone would sabotauge a deb package... but...)
> >
> > Yup, the world is full of pointy haired managers. However,
> > there are indeed selling points, to me, at least, and to others in
> > the free software community. I am not convinced I want to be selling
> > to anyone else, really, though I understand that others may want to
> > (distribute Debian to a wider market, I mean).
> >
> > Petra,> Debian is by far the best linux dist (IMO) but if the current
> > Petra,> mentality of "lets build a technical os" does not change,
> > Petra,> debian will die.
> >
> > I doubt it. It may never have the popular appeal of windows
> > 98, but I doubt if Debian is going to just quitely give up the ghost.
>
> But we must retain a certain "market share" (oh, those damned words) to
> avoid having to swallow any "industry standard" a hypothetical 90% Linux
> market share holder may impose. Look at all the LSB stuff. We know deb
> is far better than RPM, but we may have to adopt RPM as a packaging tool
> if we want to be compliant. Do you think that would happen if Debian
> holds at least 40% "market share"?
we have to maintain a user base greater than 'us' (meaning developers) in
order to survive, and while the user base is NOW increasing, (from what I
can see) I also, see ppl, who converted to redhat, because of problems,
in a: versions of software that where to old, in bo, b: install problems,
c: problems with "Almost standard" software like X. what we need to
realise is that ppl now want everything given to them on a gold plater,
yesterday. ppl and that includes managers and IS workers, don't want to
take the time to read docs, or configure things. Somewhere there must be a
middle ground between win 95 with no user control, and us, with user
configuration, of just about everything. for debian, to survive, we must
find that middle ground.
>
> Debian produces a high quality Linux distribution because we are free to
> choose the best solutions to the "integration" problems and we don't have
> to put huge amounts of work in applying those solutions to the apps
> we get from the net and package. If we find ourselves patching every
> application we download just because the developer uses some wierd Linux
> distribution that happens to have 90% market share and uses some
> not-quite good solutions, we may find it's not an easy task for this
> bunch of part-time volunteers to keep releasing packages in a timely
> fashion.
which is why we will will fade away unless we find that middle ground. we
must have a distribution, that is IS, and corparate management useable, so
that it will have a market share at all, once corps. start useing it, it
will spread on, as joe can say, wow I can use this at home, because now I
use it at work as well....
>
> > Petra,> SOME attention should be paid to users, and other
> > Petra,> non-programer types. we are all for the advocation of linux,
> > Petra,> until it means carring for our users.
> >
> > Say what? You mean we should give up our principle to take
> > care of our users? I do not think I want users that make me give up
> > my principles, thank you. There are plenty of users out there that
> > understand the free software community -- and are not dazzled by the
> > flash of cash registers.
Again, your mis reading what I'm trying to say. STOP READ. Listen to what
I am saying. a MIDDLE GROUND of caring for our users, is possible without
sacrificing our "moral" or "ethical" standards for software. Hell if we
cared for our users, just a little more, I'd bet my shirt, that we would
quickly become the most popular distribution, and then we wouldn't have to
wine and bitch when some lsb choses a standard, thats not ours... because
they would probably chose ours... get it...
>
> I don't know what Petra thinks, but I want to take more care of our users
> _without_ giving up our principles. Is it that difficult?
well, it seems I've uterly failed to get my point across, lets try this
again.
"We (Debian) should put forth the effort to care for our users,
just a little bit more than we do. We should not, comprimise our software
standards, for "freeness". We should work to write a "Debian Standard
licence" that is basicly gpl, without the bugs. We should try to
mainstream Debian in any way we can, with ad's, banners, logo's... etc. as
this will help us grow in the long run. We should put away the long held
bias agianst X and other Gui's and develop a Gui OPTION for an
Instalation, (posibly based on ggi, or maybe wxwindows (I think thats
it's name). We should improve the error hadleing of the debian install
program/script. Ie: fix it so errors are displayed in a window, instead of
the background... thereby helping you read the message. We should seek, to
introduce linux to corparations, that might have a need for it. (NO SPAM)
We should develop a system of testing, and a "Debian certification" so
that debian power users, have a leg to stand on when trying to pitch linux
to companys. and finaly we should all listen a little more, and type a
little less. (myself included).
>
> > Petra,> Your selling point of commited to free software is a
> > Petra,> good one, but it to is also, not much of a selling
> > Petra,> point.
> >
> > It is to me, and I suspect a fair number of the developers and
> > users out there.
but to the corparations, it's not. I agree that that dedication is a
good thing, witch is why I like debian so much, however we can't rely on
that to keep us afloat.
>
> It is a good selling point, but we won't do any favour to the Linux
> community if it is our only selling point. High quality, ease of use,
> stability, those points really help to spread the gospel.
Ease of install, Ease of installation and configuration, of major
packages are even bigger, Speed is the bigest that I've come across, one
system I work with has a nt 4 server, takes it 4 minutes to come online to
act as a server, takes linux ~70 seconds. ... so if it goes down... yeah
right. it's back on in 70-80 seconds... not a noticeable loss when your
used to nt servers.... and one project I know of is even trying to speed
it up.
>
> > Petra,> gpl/artistic has it's flaws. lets use some of our
> > Petra,> colective knowlage, and cash (read this fully before yelling)
> > Petra,> to come up with a set of licence goals, and hire a lawyer to
> > Petra,> write it up.
>
> Uh, oh, that's a totally orthogonal issue. I don't have anything about
> our well-known DFSG compliant licenses. I use GPL whenever I can, and I
> think our users won't complain a bit about that.
A modification to the gpl, written by a lawyer I know, would cost us ~45$
us. to have a completly air tight (cough) license that incorparates what
we want without any of the flaws, of the gpl, or artistic.
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 11:39:26AM +0100, Philip Hands wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > >
> > > The more arguments like this that I hear, the more convinced I
> > > get that we have become too popular.
> >
> > I know what you mean.
> >
> > I read these:
> >
> > ``lets make Debian more marketable by compromising our freeware principles''
>
> Was there any of those emails in this thread? (Petra's perhaps?).
> Let me say it once again, to keep this thread focused:
<pissed off>
I certinaly don't think this, and I find it rather offensive that someone
would misquote me in such a manner, but then again he/she may not read
english naturaly... so...
</pissed off>
please see above text to see what I think/feel and how I think we should
go about it.
>
> ``Let's make Debian more marketable WITHOUT compromising our freeware
> principles''. I guess it's doable, isn't it? (Excuse me for the caps).
Hell yeah. lets do it.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Particle man, Particle man
Doing the things a Particle can
Whats he like? Its not important
Particle man is he a dot, or is he a speck
When He's underwater does he get wet, or does the water get him instead?
- -Particle Man, by They Might Be Giants.
- -K
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