Re: Debian from the Stampede's POV
On Sat, 23 May 1998, Steve Lamb wrote:
> > the same thing (while internally it does use .tgz and ar etc...
>
> I never said it was. I was pointing out that SLP could be.
i doubt it. tar doesn't need crap tacked onto the end of it.
> >The fact is that .tgz is great for archives (and backups... I use
> >tar with my tape drive) but I (and many debian users) feel that dpkg
> >makes a good packaging systemn and makes system >adminitration allot
> >easier (rpm does too, even tho most people here don't >like to admit
> >it :) )
>
> Never said it wasn't. But what people who look at SLP and the fact
> that it is just a TGZ with information at the end are looking at is
> not just this system or that system it is all systems as a whole.
IMO people who look at SLP and see that, just don't get the big picture.
there is a lot more to a distribution than just compiling some binaries.
> RPMs are nice, but outside Red Hat they're not fun. DEB, same thing.
> Unless you have the package manager that comes along with it, they
> never really get used.
wrong. they can be used by anyone with a brain who is willing to learn
a simple command or two. ar and tar are on every unix so deb packages
are no problem. rpm2cpio is easily compiled on any unix, and cpio is
standard so rpms aren't much trouble either.
this still doesn't get you anything which is worthwhile - in most cases
it is too dangerous to install a redhat package on a debian system or
debian package on stamped or slackware or slackware onto debian. as i
said, there's a lot more to a distribution than just compiling some
binaries.
> SLP, without the package manager, *CAN* be used by anyone who is used
> to tar.
so what? like, big deal. in other words, who cares? what use is that?
debian users are going to use dpkg because they don't want cruft from a
.tar.gz or .slp screwing up their package-managed system.
redhat users are going to use rpm because they don't want cruft from a
.tar.gz or .slp screwing up their package-managed system.
ditto for caldera and suse users.
slackware users don't matter. in my experience, slackware users are
either clueless newbies who will have trouble even with tar, or they are
rabid do-it-yourselfers who wouldn't install someone else's pre-compiled
binary even if they were paid to do it.
stampede users matter even less - slp is their native package format, so
the issue of foreign packages doesn't even arise.
so, given all that, what *use* is this much touted ability to easily
install on another system? what good does it actually do?
btw, it is trivial to install a deb package on a non-debian
system....it is a stupid thing to want to do (because .deb packages are
designed for debian systems and may conflict with or overwrite curcial
parts of your non-debian system...same as .rpm and .tar.gz and .slp
packages are designed for their respective distributions).
anyway, it's a stupid thing to want to do but it is easy....as simple
as:
cd /
ar x PACKAGE.deb data.tar.gz
tar xfz data.tar.gz
note the similarity in the command line arguments for ar and tar. from
your other messages it seems as if you believe that 'ar' is some sort
of weird, non-standard archiving format. it's not. it's been around for
years. in fact, it was around long before tar. tar was based on ar, as a
tape backup utility. ar == archive. tar == tape archive. in other words,
any unix system will have ar on it.
> >Even if we all just used .tgz archives and SLP, this makes the
> >question of it moot because yes, you don't need the extra stuff
> >you can just unpack it, but if you don't use SLP, then
> >unpack it with .tar.gz...it is still possible that what you unpack
> >will not intergrate well with your system
>
> Correct. But, again, my scope is beyond any one system.
i think you haven't spent much (if any) time at all, thinking about the
issues involved in managing multiple systems.
> It isn't the fact that they are available but the fact that most
> people are unaware of their use. You know, I've been using Linux
> for over two years and until this discussion I've never heard of ar?
> Until a discussion I had on the newsgroups about RPM a while back I
> was unaware of cpio. The while time I have used tgz.
if you don't even know about these programs, then what makes you qualified
to comment on then?
having opinions is fine....but please try to make them *INFORMED*
opinions before spreading them around to others. Quite often, this is
as simple as just reading and listening and learning something before
opening your mouth - i.e. learn-by-lurking.
craig
--
craig sanders
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