Re: Release is currently inflexible...was Re: Upcoming Debian Releases
On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Brian C. White wrote:
> > This is in reply to your latest postind on the release schedule. I am very
> > disapointed to see that none of the ideas being discussed by developers
> > have made it into your release design. The most recent list posted has NO
> > changes from the last list you posted. If you are going to insist on
> > ignoring the input from the rest of the developers, what is the point in
> > our being here?
> Ah, Dale. I always appreciate how you keep your temper and make nice,
> helpful comments instead of the constant complaining that some would be
> tempted to do.
You are too kind.
> > You haven't changed the status of "make all packages conform to the new
> > source package format". I know you don't think this is important, but many
> > of us do. Bruce even indicated that this was something that should get
> > higher priority.
> I put things on the list that others have talked about and I change them
> when I see the opinions of the group change. The current list, however,
> only has too settings: critical & non-critical. There are no other
> measures of importance. If you can tell me and everyone else that
> you would seriously consider _not_ shipping the next release because some
> of the source packages are not in the new form, then I will be happy to
> change the status. I had not gathered that people had considered it
> _that_ important.
If we are to work on only those problems that we will consider not
shipping without fixes, then there are a whole range of things that will
never be done. It had been my understanding that this was a list of
marching orders for the rest of us to use as a guide. I was clearly
> Also, if this is what you wish, please go ahead and file critical bugs
> against every package which has source in the wrong format. In fact,
> I believe my post specifically says to file bugs against all packages
> that don't meet these goals, but I don't recall seeing one bug report
> about this. Perhaps they were all sent maint-only... But then, I'm
> sure some of my older packages are not correct here and I didn't
> receive any reports. For somebody so concerned about this point, you
> don't seem to be doing very much about it. Perhaps it is not as important
> to you as your are making it out to be?
Perhaps it isn't, that's what discussions like this are intended to
resolve. I have neither the time, nor the inclination to file 200 bug
reports, but, thanks to Vincent Renardias' offer to work on this problem
there will be some action taking place. I will be helping him as much as
my time and resources permit, but I would encourage anyone else willing
and able to provide assistance to please contact Vincent and see what can
be done. We will first be trying to contact each maintainer of these
packages to determine which of these packages are no longer being
supported. We will then look for volunteers to take over these packages
long enough to convert them to the new source format. Any help will be
> > We have had some very good discussions about what constitutes a critical
> > bug, all of which has been totaly ignored in your list.
> My humblest appologies. With almost 200 msgs a day sometimes and some
> very pressing deadlines (for work in which I get paid, that is), I have
> been only reading a few threads these past few weeks. This is no doubt
> a situation unique to me and this I will endeavor to remedy this.
Sounds like I need to appologize as well. I had been under the,
apparently mistaken, impression that you were taking on the task of
release management for this next release. If that is not the case, you
have my sincere appologies for bothering you with something that isn't
your responsibility. Whoever does take over this task should be willing
and able to follow discussions by the developers detailing their reasoning
for one issue or another being important. This is a group effort designed
to work by consensus. Ignoring any groups ideas can only lead to those
folks feeling left out and rejected.
> > I think everyone has agreed that the really major problem with the release
> > currently is the many packages with broken or unappropriate depends that
> > force dselect into failure.
> Yes, I do seem to recall this. In fact, I seem to recall first suggesting
> that dependancies be checked before being put into "fixed" and this is now
> being worked on. But, at your pleasent request, I will re-add the section
> on things to do for Rex and include this point.
Good! This has been the major "bad press" of the current release, and we
need to not make that mistake again.
> > None of these issues are reflected in your current "release design". I
> > think I speak for many others when I say that I don't like being dictated
> > to, or being ignored. I need to see some indication that you are at least
> > listening to the desires and goals of others, even when they don't agree
> > with yours.
> I have no "release design". I've merely made a repository of points that
> I have read on the lists because I thought it would be helpful to keep
> ideas for getting forgotton. This is not a dictation. I do not set policy.
That has been made perfectly clear from your response. And we all
appreciate what you have been able to do. However, we do need to know that
"someone" has the responsibility and the authority to manage the release.
If it's not you, then I guess Bruce is the final say, as he is with
everything else. Bruce, can we get some indication of what the
"definitive" list of goals are for the next release?
> Perhaps you could try some "helpful suggestions". Your attitude does nothing
> to make me want to help you. In my experience, you either agree with someone
> or you fight bitterly against them.
Well, my experience has been more flexible than that. If your experience
were correct, then there would never be any reason to discuss an issue. We
would simply state our respective positions, group up into teams, and
begin beating the crap out of each other. (come to think of it that is
probably an accurate synopsis of all past human conflict)
I would hope that we are capable enough to educate each other with the
facts we each perceive and come to a concensus agreement.
> I don't _ever_ recall you actually
> working with someone to come up with a better solution.
There is little I can do about your recall. I don't see any need to defend
my activities in this group, except to say that it is my feeling that
everyone here is working toward a better solution, or we would be
> Perhaps you have
> and I simply don't remember, but what does about any kind of ratio?
Thank you for all your fine contributions,
aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (904) 656-9769
Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road
e-mail: email@example.com Tallahassee, FL 32308
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