Re: Unteralterbach
Mateusz Jończyk <mat.jonczyk@o2.pl> writes:
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> W dniu 12.03.2014 19:32, Nils Dagsson Moskopp pisze:
>> I would like to split the the game content into several packages:
>>
>> - unteralterbach - game code and story text - unteralterbach-music
>> - music and soundtrack - unteralterbach-data-nosex - graphics and sound for
>> non-sex scenes - unteralterbach-data-sex - graphics and sound for sex scenes
>>
>> I would then ask upstream to host the unteralterbach-data-sex package and make
>> unteralterbach depend on unteralterbach-data-nosex, recommend
>> unteralterbach-music and suggest unteralterbach-data-sex.
>>
>> For a similar split, see fortunes and openarena packaging – currently, both
>> fortunes-es and fortunes-es-off exist in Debian, similarly there are
>> openarena-081-players and openarena-081-players-mature.
>>
>> The description of the unteralterbach package would explain that due to legal
>> circumstances in several jurisdictions Debian does not distribute the
>> unteralterbach-data-sex package and tell the user to get additional content from
>> upstream if (and only if) they are sure that posession of images of fictional
>> sexual abuse is legal in their jurisdiction.
> No, Debian should not in distribute the illegal scenes at all neither suggest them.
> That would make the distribution much more risky.
I was not suggesting Debian distribute illegal material. However, if I
package the game, I would not want upstream to have additional packaging
work. They already take all the legal risks inherent in distributing
it. I think that there is little, if any, PR benefit to making it
incompatible on purpose, but a possibility to antagonize upstream.
I have read about dependencies again and it seems clear to me that
“suggests” does not represent an endorsement of content not distributed
by debian, but a factual statement that a package could be enhanced.
<https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html#s-binarydeps>
Is it generally frowned upon to declare “suggests” towards packages not
distributable (or distributed) by Debian or do you consider this a
special case? From Python I learned that “special cases are not special
enough to break the rules”, but the culture here may well be different.
In case people wish the Debian package to be incompatible, I think the
prefix should not be "unteralterbach", but "unteralterbach-nosex" or
something that clearly shows that it is different from and incompatible
with any possible upstream package. However, I would not like to make
the game incompatible with upstream without very good reasons.
>> Depending on how hard it is to split the non-abuse sex scenes out of the
>> upstream acrhive and on Debian's stance on sexual content in general, one could
>> also include the adult sex scenes in the data package hosted by Debian (which
>> obviously could not have the “-nosex” suffix then).
>>
> Yes, the split would be probably welcome.
I think it would be easier to have a package that is legal in most
jurisdiction when all sex scenes are split off. For reference:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_by_region>
>> For prior art, see the package description of libdvdread4, which says:
>>
>>> libdvdread probes for libdvdcss at runtime and if found, will use it to
>>> decrypt sections of the DVD as necessary. libdvdcss needs to be installed from
>>> third-party repositories (see README.css), it's not included in Debian.
>>
>> OpenTTD says something similar about non-distributable game data:
>>
>>> OpenTTD is playable with the free graphics files from the openttd-opengfx
>>> package and optional sound files from the openttd-opensfx package (which is in
>>> non-free). Alternatively, OpenTTD can use the graphics files from the original
>>> Transport Tycoon Deluxe game (See README.Debian on how to set this up).
>>
>> I think it would be very important to point out the differences between upstream
>> content at <http://unteralterbach.net> and the Debian package to prevent
>> overeager actors from assuming the package contains illegal content – as the
>> discussion has shown, people are unlikely to evaluate the game properly before
>> condemning it.
>>
> Even somebody casually looking at the game could think that it is much, much worse
> than it probably is in reality (and even with all adult/non-adult sex images removed).
> A good example could be a post in this thread
> (https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-games/2014/03/msg00087.html) by a serious
> Debian Developer.
> If this will go out, somebody will find that package, try it out and get shocked.
> He/She will then contact some journalist who will publish it.
I do think these issues should be handled beforehand then instead of
trying to stay under the media radar and hoping no one freaks out.
A responsible journalist who would read in the package description that
the Debian package does not contain any sexual imagery would not create
a scandal – an irresponsible one could manage to create one regardless.
(Aside: Please do not delimit URLs using parentheses, as they are legal
in URLs and this confuses URL parsers – including the one in my MUA.)
>>>> I wrote that. However, I was corrected:
>>>> http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1999-effects-of-pornography.html
>>>>
>>>>
> While not specifically about child abuse, it shows that if (regular)
>>>> porn is more easily available, there is a lower rate of sexual crimes such
>>>> as rape.
>>>>
>>>> From this we cannot conclude that having such games would lower the rate of
>>>> child abuse, but it is certainly possible. It is very unlikely that it will
>>>> increase it.
>>> I haven't read that paper to determine how they built their data from what
>>> sample sets they used but I'd like to know if the experiment has been
>>> repeated elsewhere and what the results were for those trials. Results may
>>> be completely different in different parts of the world or using different
>>> samples in the same parts of the world.
>>
>> I suggest you read the paper – it does indeed try to compare different cultures
>> and jurisdictions and references a lot of other literature.
> In my mail (https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-games/2014/03/msg00094.html)
> I have quoted a different paper [5] that is concerned specifically with child porn
> and has a different conclusion:
Not quite. The study is about a similar, but different problem domain.
Quote <http://www.comm.ucsb.edu/sites/www.comm.ucsb.edu/files/sitefiles/people/faculty/linzd/virtual_child_porno.pdf>:
> It is important to recognize that the response latency findings in
> this study may say little about the likelihood that exposed
> individuals will act on such cognitive associations.
As I live in Berlin, I could try to ask the experts at Charité Institute
of Sexology and Sexual Medicine what they think about Unteralterbach. I
remember having read an article about their therapy approach where they
try to classify situations and media into “red”, “yellow” and “green”.
I am, however, unsure if that could be useful to the discussion.
--
Nils Dagsson Moskopp // erlehmann <http://dieweltistgarnichtso.net>
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