Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of "erotic" interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
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Hello,
Please excuse me for posting to NSPCC. I misunderstood some posts on the mailing
list and called for fire, which was unnecessary and rude.
Please send the replies to debian-devel-games only. We do not want too much noise.
Everyone interested on the other lists probably knows of the issue.
I have been searching one post for 20 minutes and the dispersion across many
mailing lists did not help here.
W dniu 12.03.2014 05:39, Bas Wijnen pisze:
>>>> As far as I understand, we're all defining our position 2nd hand on Bas'
>>>> analysis.
>
> And given the responses, my analysis obviously needs some explanation.
>
> This game is technically very well done. It is a visual novel, which like a
> regular novel is intended to make the reader/player think about some subjects.
> In this case the main subject is child abuse.
>
> Depending on player choices, you can see different sides of it. That includes
> the side of the abuser. Contrary to what people seem to have understood,
> playing this side does not make the player feel like this is a good idea. In
> fact, it made me feel so bad with "myself", that I stopped playing.
>
> There are (drawn) images of child abuse included in the game. IMO, it would
> have been better without them, but I understand why the author included them:
> she wanted to provoke the audience. That certainly worked, but for an
> international group like Debian it goes further, as these images are illegal in
> many places. Therefore I don't think there is a question that if this game
> would enter Debian, those images will not be a part of it. That means that if
> there was a fear that the game would be used as "entertainment for pedophiles",
> it won't work. (And even if it would, that might even decrease actual child
> abuse; see below.)
>
> There are also a few images of sex with adults. I'm not sure what Debian's
> viewpoint is on those (I think they are also illegal in some countries, I recall
> a discussion about the "hotbabe" cpu temperature monitor), but removing them as
> well wouldn't significantly change the game, so for this discussion that isn't
> relevant either.
>
> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 05:39:14PM +0100, Mateusz Jończyk wrote:
>> A sane person tries to judge morally their actions, which often includes
>> predicting their consequences. It has been mentioned here already and I find
>> it likely that the game may trigger some people sick of paedophilia and more
>> harm may be done.
>
> I wrote that. However, I was corrected:
> http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1999-effects-of-pornography.html
>
>
While not specifically about child abuse, it shows that if (regular)
> porn is more easily available, there is a lower rate of sexual crimes such as
> rape.
>
> From this we cannot conclude that having such games would lower the rate of
> child abuse, but it is certainly possible. It is very unlikely that it will
> increase it.
>
There was a research on similar issues [5]:
"Findings from this study indicate that exposure to virtual child pornography,
in the form of barely legal sexually explicit depictions, did result in a cognitive
effect. Exposure to sexually explicit depictions featuring underage-looking models
results in viewers being more likely to associate sex and sexuality to subsequent
nonsexual depictions of minors.
[...]
The first step in any intentional behavior, however, may be a cognitive consider-
ation of performing that behavior. Therefore, exposure to any stimuli that makes the
consideration of a particular behavior more likely to occur also seems likely to
increase the probability that an individual will participate in that behavior. Thus,
while it does not seem reasonable to claim, based on the totality of the current
results, that the government’s claims of effects relating to exposure to virtual
child pornography are valid, the support found for Hypotheses 1 and 2 suggest that it
would also be inappropriate to reject these claims outright."
> And since this was the only reason for me to say that this game shouldn't be in
> Debian, I have changed my mind on that as well (provided that the illegal images
> are removed, and ftpmasters would accept it).
>
> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 07:40:22PM +0100, Tobias Hansen wrote:
>> there is no Debian developer who is considering to package or sponsor the
>> game. (Or is there?)
>
> Yes, there is. Nils has shown to be a well-mannered person, and I'm happy to
> help him build a proper package. Once it's done, I have no problem sponsoring
> it.
>
> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 10:05:15PM +0100, Daniel Pocock wrote:
>> Many people wouldn't want to touch this with a ten foot pole. The
>> consequences of even showing sympathy for this type of package could well have
>> personal consequences for some people well into the future,
>
> This game does not make the player think that child abuse is acceptable. Quite
> the contrary, it does an excellent job of making the player very uncomfortable
> when they play the role of the abuser.
>
Again, You are a healthy person. We do not know how a sick one will react to it.
I would agree with what You have written in Your previous post [6]:
> A more serious objection is the effect that it has on the "mentally ill" people
> that the game mentions. I fear the effect that this game may have on them,
> could be to convince them that sex with children is not always a bad thing. The
> fact that the children are so realistic otherwise may add to this risk that they
> may not keep fantasy and reality separate. Their mental condition will surely
> stimulate that line of thinking. In some cases, that may lead to more child
> abuse. I would certainly not want to be responsible for that (in a broader
> sense than just legally).
This is probably where NSPCC could help. We should really ask them for comment
before publishing this. This will decrease our risk (see later).
> While you are right that saying anything about the subject will cause some
> people to be angry, I think that is a very bad motivation for not saying
> anything.
>
>>> This is a game where you play a paedophile. The aim is to rape local little
>>> girls, whilst evading the authorities. Success is rewarded with graphic
>>> scenes of sex with children, failure with being thrown in prison.
>
> No, this description has nothing to do with this game.
>
When the game will be included, such opinions may begin to circulate.
>>> The sex content is only optional in the sense that you can out yourself to
>>> the authorities and get thrown in jail rather than continue with the actual
>>> game content.
>
> No; apart from the adult sex scenes, you do not see any sex until you select
> that you are mentally ill and want to see it.
> Also, even with all sex enabled, most of the game consists of reading text while
> looking at regular town scenes with some people pasted on top.
>
> It is a lot more like a regular novel than some people seem to think.
>
>> It was already suggested that because most sexual content is illegal in
>> several countries, it would not be included in a game package acceptable for
>> Debian. To me, this means that any outrage about graphic depictions of sexual
>> abuse is misplaced here.
>
> +1.
>
>> I think that the game is a decent game without *any* sex scenes. If I
>> understood Bas' review of the game, what disturbed him most was the writing,
>> not the sex scenes – so we seem to agree on that effect.
>
> Correct.
>
>> Regardless of the outcome of this discussion, I find it quite annoying that
>> people seem to long for a sympathetic protagonist and get mad when a game
>> provides something that unsettles them. It seems there is a wide range of
>> game-space that cannot ever be explored if people insist that games must be
>> shallow and fun to be ever allowed.
>
> Haha, indeed! I personally like one-dimensional heroic protagonists, but I'm
> entirely with you that there should be other options available.
Right.
Nevertheless, including this could have dire consequences [2]:
>
> It would likely start a media firestorm resulting in child advocacy groups
> pressuring Debian's corporate sponsors to cut off funding. They would likely do
> so. This is the worst kind of PR you can get. No school would ever be able to
> use Debian or a derivative again, etc. I personally would never use Debian
> again.
[3]:
> Or you could easily extrapolate to our own context: for example, an IT or
> software company employing DDs wins a major contract to supply a Debian-based
> solution to schools or health care or social services. How long do you think it
> will take tabloid newspapers in a place like the UK to seize on a connection to
> something as inappropriate as this "game"? If anything, one of the vendors who
> missed out on the contract would be sending clues about it to the press just to
> make sure they couldn't miss it.
and is generally risky.
Because of that I would argue against including this in Debian even if it would be
otherwise OK.
Some cultures treat viewing porn as bad in itself (primarily the Catholic Church
and some other Christian denominations). Therefore I would ask You to not include
any pornography in Debian. Keeping clean is difficult for us enough.
It is also claimed that porn has dire effect for marriages. There is a balanced
report here [1].
There is a good recent report of effects of P in general [4].
[1]
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/inside-porn-addiction/201112/is-porn-really-destroying-500000-marriages-annually
[2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2014/03/msg00035.html
[3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-games/2014/03/msg00085.html
[4] http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-sunny-side-of-smut/
[5]
http://www.comm.ucsb.edu/sites/www.comm.ucsb.edu/files/sitefiles/people/faculty/linzd/virtual_child_porno.pdf
[6] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-games/2014/03/msg00044.html
- --
Pozdrawiam,
Mateusz Jończyk
AEI, Informatyka, Semestr 2 Magisterskich, BDiIS
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