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Bug#727708: Init system resolution open questions

On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:08:41PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> > AFAICT we are all agreed that:

> > * Applications which aren't part of the init system must not require a
> >   particular init to be pid 1.  (So in particular a desktop
> >   environment may not require a particular pid 1.)

> I still have concerns about this.

> This position seems to be predicated on the assumption that applications
> will be able to depend on a working logind for jessie, and that a working
> logind will be provided for systems using sysvinit.  This apparently works
> today with systemd-shim but will stop working with post-205 systemd.

> I want to understand whether setting this requirement means that we're
> intending to require that jessie ship with systemd 204, or, if not, what
> level of certainty we have that post-205 logind will work with sysvinit
> for jessie.

I don't believe we need to know the answer to these questions to know that
Ian's requirement is a correct one.  If we are saying that packages cannot
drop their sysvinit scripts in jessie in order to ensure smooth upgrades,
then the same requirement should apply to desktop environments, even if we
don't know at the moment precisely how the maintainers of the affected
packages will solve this - because having smooth upgrades between releases
is a *baseline* for the quality of Debian integration, and we should not
vacillate merely because some people fear it will be hard in this particular

The consequences of a desktop environment having a hard dependency on a
particular init system in jessie are that a desktop system becomes unusable
partway through the upgrade.  If a user tries to open a new login session
while the upgrade is in progress, or if for whatever reason the user running
the upgrade logs out (or gets logged out due to a bug) and tries to log back
in, this will in all likelihood fail.  I don't think that's an acceptable
outcome; so the requirement not to hard-depend on systemd follows directly
from this.

There may be other failure modes if the system is rebooted partway through
the upgrade, but that's always the case, and doesn't speak against declaring
a dependency on an init system.

Separately, I don't agree that it's actually hard to support logind on
non-systemd for jessie.  This already works for v204, and the work to
support v205 is in progress.

Steve Langasek                   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer                   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer                                    http://www.debian.org/
slangasek@ubuntu.com                                     vorlon@debian.org

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