On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:08:41PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes: > > AFAICT we are all agreed that: > > * Applications which aren't part of the init system must not require a > > particular init to be pid 1. (So in particular a desktop > > environment may not require a particular pid 1.) > I still have concerns about this. > This position seems to be predicated on the assumption that applications > will be able to depend on a working logind for jessie, and that a working > logind will be provided for systems using sysvinit. This apparently works > today with systemd-shim but will stop working with post-205 systemd. > I want to understand whether setting this requirement means that we're > intending to require that jessie ship with systemd 204, or, if not, what > level of certainty we have that post-205 logind will work with sysvinit > for jessie. I don't believe we need to know the answer to these questions to know that Ian's requirement is a correct one. If we are saying that packages cannot drop their sysvinit scripts in jessie in order to ensure smooth upgrades, then the same requirement should apply to desktop environments, even if we don't know at the moment precisely how the maintainers of the affected packages will solve this - because having smooth upgrades between releases is a *baseline* for the quality of Debian integration, and we should not vacillate merely because some people fear it will be hard in this particular case. The consequences of a desktop environment having a hard dependency on a particular init system in jessie are that a desktop system becomes unusable partway through the upgrade. If a user tries to open a new login session while the upgrade is in progress, or if for whatever reason the user running the upgrade logs out (or gets logged out due to a bug) and tries to log back in, this will in all likelihood fail. I don't think that's an acceptable outcome; so the requirement not to hard-depend on systemd follows directly from this. There may be other failure modes if the system is rebooted partway through the upgrade, but that's always the case, and doesn't speak against declaring a dependency on an init system. Separately, I don't agree that it's actually hard to support logind on non-systemd for jessie. This already works for v204, and the work to support v205 is in progress. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developer http://www.debian.org/ slangasek@ubuntu.com vorlon@debian.org
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