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Re: Good news!

Dear Andrew,

Please do not make us wrong here. See comments below:

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 12:32 AM, Andrew Lee <ajqlee@debian.org> wrote:
Dear All,

Thanks for Rex and Jouston's input. It seems that the sticking issue has
been hinging on the transfer of the debian.org.tw’s domain name *owner*,
and who shall manage the resources.

You are oversimplify the question we are discussing. Yes, indeed the one of most critical questions needs to be answer is it. But you told me in earlier email saying the SPI offer does not mean only server and domain name hosting, remember?

The debian.org.tw domain name transfer issue has been wanting for a
resolution for several months before the DOT team made a quick poll in May.

Be careful here, Andrew. You are about to crossing the line. The decision making process for community like us does not coming short. Not like commercial company or your personal own domain name, we just can't simply buy a service and move in.

For me, at least the decision is not *made* by few individual. It was a honourable vote.

The decision didn't include SPI as an option at that time. As a result,
it won’t hurt if we can continue delaying it for a few months and then
decide to transfer it to a *non-debian-related-commercial* company or
transfer it to *SPI*.

With this email you sent today, it's clear for me that you do not understand at all on what we are trying to explain and you are keeping ignore other members opinion at large.
Andrew, calm down please and think twice. I dislike to see you swayed by your feelings and act rashly.

I'll offer my hand to the legal study group and seek for speeding up the process. I also suggest you join to understand what needs to be done and offer your help in a proper way.

The IRC meeting is a call for a public discussion on the domain name
transfer to SPI, not on the legal issue of how to proceed to setup SPI
in Taiwan or *who* is project liaison to talk to SPI at the final stage.

Joerg has explained very clear on his email on Aug 4th to DOT members':
   "*Assuming* you would join SPI (and all the legal stuff is ok with
it), SPI would *offer* to take over the .debian.org.tw domain and manage
it on behalf of DOT. Which entity shall be authorized to fully managing
it (like we do with emdebian.org) or simply pointing the NS entries to
machines DOT controls(like we do with debian.org, where we own the
Domain but Debian admins do the work)."

If the majority of DOT members already have strong opinion and don't
want to further engage with SPI during the IRC session, I'd suggest that
we could simply have vote for DOT members using the IRC meeting:

I don't understand why you have such assumption/question? Both Rex and I(at least, I believe more DOT members) are exciting to have some sort of relationship with SPI. Many DOT members including me are really appreciated when you brought this opportunity on earlier.

You are not 15 years old teenage any more. If you need immediate answer in such a short coming way, my short answer will be "1". Again, please calm down and think twice. Is it that simple and easy just a domain name transfer issue?



0. no action
 - keep debian.org.tw in the non-debian-related non profit association
 - keep debian.tw in the non-debian-related commercial company

1. transfer debian.org.tw to a non-debian-related commercial company
which already has own the debian.tw.
 - Execute the motion based on the decision of the earlier DOT poll

2. transfer both debian.org.tw and debian.tw to domain ownership to a
formal debian related non profit organization
 - currently the formal Debian related non-profit organization -
SPI(Software in the Public Interest)

Kindly regards,


Rex Tsai wrote:
> Hi, Andrew,
>   You quoted out of context in email to the public again. I replied the
> email at July 24th to DOT members only, to asked members who are
> available to have a discussion on this mater.
>   I did not ask Joerg attend to this meeting.  Why ? because
>  * Joerg from SPI does not know about the local regulations.
>  * DOT team does not full understand how SPI works, and what's changes
> and how to work with SPI based on local regulations. Also, the team need
> to study the laws and local regulations about tax reduction, overseas  NGO.
>  * The proposal was made by Andrew, and he refused to explain more
> details to the others. But only pushing the team transferred the domain
> name and assets to SPI, ignored the resolution we have made before the
> SPI proposal.
>  * In this case, the team should have another poll after we have general
> understanding to decide
> 1. Do we want to join SPI as associated project ?
> 2. What's the best way (fulfill local regulations) to work with SPI ?
> 3. Who is project liaison to talk to SPI ?
> 4. If the process of join SPI takes too long, should we transfer the
> domain name from a not-in-good-relationship association to DOT member
> first ?
>  * Since there are still many pending questions need to sort out, bring
> up this meeting with Joerg will be inefficiently. Get Joerg involved
> into these arguments is not a properly way to work with SPI.
>  * Having a meeting with SPI in English before the team have a general
> resolution, is simply taking advantage of language skill, which push
> other DOT members out of this meeting.
>  * The team does not say 'NO' to SPI, I am sure everyone is excited
> about this opportunity to work with SPI. But we need to seek the
> solution and understanding to make it happen.
>   Our situation is a clear example to see why we should let a
> independent and friendly association managing the resources, but not
> handling by individual, who might have bad communication or run into
> different direction with the team.
> BTW, Andrew, your tai chi kung fu is more and more better. :)
> Best Regards,
> -Rex
> Andrew Lee wrote on 08/26/2009 05:51 PM:
>> Dear all,
>> Thanks for Rex's input. Actually, this IRC meeting was a direct
>> suggestion made by Rex in his July 24th email response about the DOT issue:
>> "I suggest Andrew arrange a meeting on IRC or Skype, when the others
>> who are interested about this matter to explain what's 'legal
>> organization' and have a discussion on Internet."
>> I've faithfully adopted another request earlier as invite SPI folks to
>> join the discussion on DOT members' email thread.
>> Joerg Jaspert(Vice-President of SPI) responded to the DOT members' email
>> thread on Aug. 4th. There has been no reply to Joerg’s input from the
>> DOT members until now.  This is very encouraging to see feedbacks aiming
>> to address the DOT issue.
>> I think we should continue the momentum to drive this IRC meeting to
>> seriously consider SPI’s initiative.
>> Kindly regards,
>> -Andrew
>> Rex Tsai wrote:
>>> Hi, Andrew
>>>   Thanks for response to the public, after ignoring Jesse's request in
>>> email and me for face-to-face discussion in DBP last weekend. :-)
>>>   A few quick feedback on SPI cooperation (SPI is not an issue, please)
>>>  * Since DOT is a local user group, which is managed by a local team. I
>>> am afraid not everyone can express and understand English properly in
>>> the IRC meeting, since English is not our native language. So, I
>>> suggested DOT team set up a meeting in Chinese which we can clear most
>>> of issues and misunderstandings before we as a team talk to SPI.
>>>  * Also, if we decide to join SPI as associated project, we need to
>>> elect a project liaison from the DOT team, who can give authoritative
>>> decisions.
>>>  * Regarding to the debian.org.tw and debian.tw (the DOT team secured
>>> debian.tw lately from an non-debian-related commercial company). As a
>>> Debian promoter group, the DOT team is happy to manage the domain name
>>> in the best interests of that community. However, so far as I can see,
>>> transfer to SPI does not solving the managing problems, but increase
>>> more paper works only. Also, there are other associations manage Debian
>>> domain name in Japan, Norway, Spain and France. So, transfer the domain
>>> name and assets to SPI is not the only solution.
>>>  * Anyone can apply SPI's non-contributing membership, and associated
>>> project can be contributing membership. I don't see how official
>>> presence is meaningful expect Andrew can present Taiwan users for his
>>> own political interests.
>>>> Andrew Lee wrote:
>>>> To have a SPI affiliated Debian.Org.TW means that Taiwan will have an
>>>> official presence from the perspective of SPI’s view. The presence is
>>>> meaningful because so far attending Debian held international
>>>> conferences have been individual participation instead of representing
>>>> Taiwan as a whole
>>>  * I agreed we need a non-profit organization to entrust the DOT's
>>> domain name and assets, I also agreed the organization should not be
>>> managed by only a few people. This issue is what we are trying to fix,
>>> at the mean time we also are not comfortable on the current situation.
>>> The domain name is registered under not-so-familiarity organization, and
>>> Andrew keep ignoring team's request to transfer it to trusted team member.
>>>  * The DOT team have set up a focus group on studying the legal
>>> framework of SPI and local laws and regulations. The focus group
>>> currently has three members - Jesse Sung, Mat Lee and Rex Tsai. The
>>> others are welcome to join us.
>>>  * Regarding to the tax reduction benefit, SPI as a US registered 501(c)
>>> non-profit organization simply don't fulfill the local regulation. As
>>> the one of the organizators of biggest FLOSS conference COSCUP[2] in
>>> Taiwan, I can understand what sponsors need for local regulation. We
>>> need a local organization to managed the resources and provide tax
>>> reduction benefit. This is the goal of the focus group.
>>>  * What we need to do is to understand what's the best way to work as
>>> partner with SPI, maybe like ffis e.V in Germany or Associazione
>>> Software Libero in Italy. However, this will take time to study and sort
>>> out legal and tax issues.
>>>  * The last thing, Andrew Lee please don't play political game with us.
>>> (by ignoring other's important decisions and opinions, and quote out of
>>> context in email to the public) Please don't ignore the
>>> requests and resolution of the team, which is based on the result of
>>> poll. You will make us have not choice to move on without you.
>>> 1. http://www.debian.org/trademark
>>> 2. http://coscup.org/2009/en/
>>> Best Regards
>>> -Rex
>>> Andrew Lee wrote on 08/25/2009 05:39 PM:
>>>> Dear All,
>>>> I am glad to see more than 30 people who attended the Taiwan Debian
>>>> Meeting - Debian Birthday Party last weekend. We shared the special
>>>> Debian 5.0.2 Arch 'All' and had a lot of fun. It was a great meeting!!
>>>> Please forward this message to these people. Someone must has their
>>>> contact information either email or phone, or even have both.
>>>> Thanks for all your feedback about the SPI issue thus far generated in
>>>> that DOT members email thread. I am grateful to many people’s input
>>>> especial the one from Rex.
>>>> I would like to propose an IRC meeting to discuss an issue which has
>>>> been actively in discussions for a while, namely, does Taiwanese Debian
>>>> community need to have a global presence through opening its Doman name
>>>> to SPI (Software in the Public Interest)?
>>> ... cut ...
>>>> >From the above list, we can see that Debian is a registered trademark of
>>>> Software in the Public Interest, Inc. Therefore, it is very natural for
>>>> SPI to manage Debian related Domain Names. SPI has been in charge of
>>>> Debian official domain names around the world.
>>>> To have a SPI affiliated Debian.Org.TW means that Taiwan will have an
>>>> official presence from the perspective of SPI’s view. The presence is
>>>> meaningful because so far attending Debian held international
>>>> conferences have been individual participation instead of representing
>>>> Taiwan as a whole.
>>>> Taiwan also has specific rules about domain name ownership. Basically,
>>>> the .ORG domain name can’t be owned by any individual except the
>>>> ownership was in effect before the passing of the domain law.
>>>> In short, the benefits of joining the SPI stream are the followings:
>>>>     1. Link with Debian main project officially
>>>>     2. To have an formal presence at SPI
>>>>     3. Taiwan can have its official signature when attending Debain
>>>> held international conferences.
>>>>     4. To be eligible for tax reduction benefit when making donations to
>>>> SPI and server bandwidth to DOT( if the DOT is individually owned, it
>>>> will limited its growth because the Debian community in Taiwan will have
>>>> difficulty to ask for help which only available to non-profit organizations)
>>>>     5. And also for future Debian syncproxy in Asia
>>>>     6. Further Debian related events such as
>>>> DebCamp/mini-DebConf/DebConf in Taiwan. :)
>>>> Joerg Jaspert already created an IRC channel called #spi-tw on oftc.net
>>>> for this. For all of your convenience, we hasn't decided the date and
>>>> time yet.
>>>> Please recommend a reasonable time and a date for this.
>>>> Kindly regards,
>>>> -Andrew
>>>> Joerg Jaspert wrote:
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>> I'm sorry that my reply took this long, but DebConf didn't leave me much
>>>>> time to draft a proper reply, and then I was taking a weekend basically
>>>>> off.
>>>>> Now, as I don't know who of you knows me, let me shortly introduce
>>>>> myself. I am a Linux user since somewhere around 2000, a Debian
>>>>> Developer since 2002, SPI head admin since 2006 and a member of the SPI
>>>>> Board of Directors and SPIs Vice President since 2007.
>>>>>>> 6. Yesterday, he sent an email said SPI is willing to handle the domain
>>>>>>> name 'debian.org.tw' immediately. Which is totally different as what he
>>>>>>> told me, and we are surprised by this information. This message to me
>>>>>>> looks like no matter what the others vote, he will work with Debian
>>>>>>> folks by transfer the domain name and other resources to SPI.
>>>>> Lets take some heat out of the discussion: SPI will not act on anything
>>>>> if there is no clear consensus on what should be done.
>>>>>>>> Andrew, could you please provide a more detailed overview of what would
>>>>>>>> change if we go the way you proposed?
>>>>>>>> What would happen
>>>>>>>>  * to the servers (hardware)?
>>>>>>>>  * administration rights and access to the servers?
>>>>>>>>  * to eventual policies or procedures for DOT members?
>>>>>>>>  * on the legal side (who is going to set up a legal entity and how?)?
>>>>>>>>  * to change on the community side?
>>>>>>>>  * to the decision making process?
>>>>> To all of the above the answer is: Nothing and everything. :)
>>>>> It is not SPIs goal to take over administration of servers of member
>>>>> projects. We can do so if we get asked, but we prefer not to.
>>>>> Nor do we want to rule those projects, in whatever way. We also don't
>>>>> take decisions for our member projects. We may aid you to find a good
>>>>> decision if you ask, but we are SPI, not $PROJECT, we are not the people
>>>>> to decide for $PROJECT.
>>>>> The goal and usual working mode of SPI is a different one. We do support our
>>>>> member projects in the way they want and need support. And we provide a
>>>>> clean interface between SPI and the project over which our actions can
>>>>> be controlled/started. (In case of Debian that is the DPL, other projects
>>>>> nominate liaisons that interact with us).
>>>>> Now, I honestly have about *no* knowledge of laws in your country and
>>>>> also don't know the rules attached to .org.tw domains and who might own
>>>>> them. There is certainly lots we have to discuss before we can decide if
>>>>> DOT wants to join SPI, or if there should be an own legal entity in your
>>>>> country doing something similar than SPI *or* if you simply go on like
>>>>> you did in the past.
>>>>> The only thing I want to advice against is having project owned assets
>>>>> assigned to an individual, like the debian.org.tw currently is. After
>>>>> all this means a single person has to lose interest and go MIA, and you
>>>>> are in trouble. Even worse if that person is on the bad side of an
>>>>> accident...
>>>>> *Assuming* you would join SPI (and all the legal stuff is ok with it),
>>>>> SPI would *offer* to take over the .debian.org.tw domain and manage it in
>>>>> behalf of DOT. Which could be fully managing it (like we do with
>>>>> emdebian.org) or simply pointing the NS entries to machines DOT controls
>>>>> (like we do with debian.org, where we own the Domain but Debian admins
>>>>> do the work).
>>>>> The same motto ("we do what the projects want, as long as it fits SPIs
>>>>> goals and is legal") holds true for other assets we manage for our
>>>>> projects. Which, besides Domain names and trademark holding, is handling
>>>>> money and giving legal advice.
>>>>> Now, as SPI is US-based (I'm german, but the organisation is officially
>>>>> placed in New York), this might not be something DOT needs. We
>>>>> definitely have to find this out.
>>>>>>>   Actually, the most active service is the forum (moto.debian.org.tw)
>>>>>>> and the wiki. I only care do we are still free to manage the server and
>>>>>>> develop any service.
>>>>> Assuming you would join SPI: You wouldn't give up anything you have
>>>>> now, *except* that you should not work against SPIs goals. So as long as
>>>>> you don't, like, start advocating non-free and closed systems, you would
>>>>> be all well.

Linuxer Jouston
Email/MSN: jouston(AT)jouston.no-ip.com
Wagaly Talk number: 070-707-014
Skype me: jouston
IRC(Freenode/Debian): jouston

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