> [Chris Tillman] > > You know, the official installer is really not that bad! Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > That depends on your point of view. For new Linux users, it is > really, _really_, bad. For more experienced Linux users, it is very > flexible and powerful, but not easy, convenient and fast. > > I want a Debian installer for new Linux users. :-) Since the current installer takes over the terminal and guides the user through the installation, it seems to me that it does the same job as other installers which happen to be graphical. But with one difference. The Debian installer does not use the mouse but instead uses the cursor keys and the enter key. So I have to be specific and ask you is that specifically what you think new Linux users need? An installer that uses the mouse instead of the cursor keys and enter? Are new Linux users really troubled by using the cursor keys instead of the mouse? [insert poignant pause] I should stop here and pause for the answer but I can't. Think of this as a followup to my own posting without even waiting to post it. I would divide what the new user thinks of as the installer up into parts. The installer. The tasksel/dselect package selection step. The debconf and non-debconf configuration step. Let's talk about them individually. The installer is actually pretty nice and I will cautiously say that is probably what most experienced Debian people are refering to when they say the installer is not that bad. But I am betting that is not what the new Linux user is referring to when one talks about the installer. I am betting that they are including the rest of the process with it. The tasksel step for package selection is a good thing. It is much better than not having it. However, it is a pretty big brush right now and paints huge strokes. It needs refinement. This has been a topic on the lists. But dselect step is another thing. IMNHO for the new Linux user it is very intimidating. Many experienced Debian people openly admit that they avoid using it. I believe the dselect experience leaves new Linux users with the same opinion as posted above. I never run dselect and avoid it both during the install and at other times. Packages which do not use debconf have left users with bad experiences as well. I believe this has mostly been fixed up in recent versions of packages. But previously it was very annoying to have unpredictable intervals of time between question and answer customization sessions which would occur during an install. You never knew when you could leave the installer unattended without it stopping waiting for a reaction from you. Again, I believe most of those packages with issues have been addressed in recent versions. Even for packages that use debconf the messages can be very annoying. An example. Do I really need an OK-only dialog box to warn me about ftp globbing attacks? Does the CVS package really need to make a repository even if I only need or want the client apps? Let's not bash on those but they are typical examples. In fairness there used to be many more but much progress has been made in that area. Finally the CD package distribution is not so nice yet. I often see people say that CD #1 is all that 99% of the population needs. But having done a CD installation in the last week I disagree. There are many packages which I consider core which are not in CD #1. I usually do a network installation and never see that difficulty. But if you install from CD you find that you really do need several disks. (I don't know which disk rsync is on but it is not on #1. How about sudo? How about NTP? How about gawk? How about fakeroot? The list continues.) I realize tradeoffs need to be made and not everything can fit but that is different from what people say about most people only needing CD #1. The core installer is pretty good. But the new Linux user thinks all of the surrounding environment is the installer too. It is their first contact with the system. It is all part of the installation experience. I don't think the installer is the problem. But until everything else is improved complaints will continue about it. Bob
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