Hi, Le 10/11/2019 à 09:46, Devin Prater a écrit :
Thank you for your fair, calm message. Yes, Linux accessibility is at a crisis point, but we do have four years to change this, even make things better than they have ever been. Now, that doesn’t mean we should just
Exactly.
wait until three years have passed, then jump to action, but we don’t have to worry that Linux won’t stop working in a month or so unless we find each GTK developer and personally go all “how dare you!” On them and demand things. While I do still think that Linux developers, like all large companies, need accountability, we can at least leave a “paper trail” as it were, on Github.
You are completely right.
Some one correct me if I’m wrong, but all states of an issue are logged, all comments kept, and these cannot be deleted from a Github project, unless that project is deleted. So, we can ask, in a calm, informative way, that, for example, the Gnome Dash be fixed, so that it reports more than just “window” when entered, or that the Mate menu, I assume that’s what’s being used on F123 for graphical menus, be fixed so that Orca will report when one has entered into that menu. Give developers links to ATK documentation, Orca documentation, then, importantly, post the link to that issue to a list, like the Orca list, or the Linux-accessibility list if there is one, or the IRC #accessibility channel for those who have those bounce things that let them stay online all the time. Developers then can work on that issue, giving comments, dialoging with the community, following and commenting on the thread themselves, letting the developer know that this is something that will help. Or, they can close the thread, letting us know that accessibility isn’t important to that area of Linux if another developer doesn’t open it again. Then, we go on Twitter, Facebook, Mastodon, IRC, Email, contact the FSF and such, pound the message into stone if that makes a difference, that accessibility matters, and volunteers must be held accountable in order to make Linux free for all, not just free for those who have eyes that are operational, with all their circuits functioning perfectly. I think we’ll have to change the Linux accessibility landscape one Github or Gitlab issue at a time. And yes, there will be failings. There will be times when we’ll all have to shout “Shame! Shame! Shame!” At a developer for failing our community. But, as the failing of Linux, Antergos Sonar, and Coconut Linux has shown, we can’t do this on our own, and we cannot let developers expect that we can just make our own distributions. I’d love it if we could, really. Sonar was amazing. But it failed, so we have to try to raise awareness however we can, not just on Forums for distress, but on Github issues, where developers /cannot/ ignore it. And, if GTK4 folks say it’s Orca’s fault,
Many thanks for all this, that is exactly what I have tried to carry out for years a a message. That is also why I think Debian is the good distro for accessibility: while we work on upstream - Sid / testing, end-users are quite on stable. That is why we have time, indeed, thanks to this long dev cycle, among other things. Advanced users may use backports. Power users may be on testing to help during 2 dev years.
When you report bugs, dont hesitate to say it here. We will be able to follow and support you. Just be careful about one thing: MATE is a fork of Gnome, Gnome might not like them very much I guess. So do not mix them when reporting. Also because MATE probably has different problems, as rely on GTK3, not Wayland yet, etc. BTW, dont hesitate to open a thread here about Mate, to make us identify the problem. I am not aware of Mate problems so far here.
put an issue on Orca, and loop them all in, grab some popcorn, and watch them point fingers. Then, if it’s not resolved, post it to the world, paint the picture of how there just isn’t any resolution in free software.
Indeed we need advertisment, noise from the community, if bugs are not handled or closed. But always calm, constructive, to generte positive behaviors.
Best regards
Also, there is the “bug bounty” system that some open source projects do, like Libretro, of Retroarch. If people cannot do Accessibility because of the inherent value of humans with disabilities, offer them money. Yes, it’s not the best for the free software facade of being “above all that”, but it works sometimes, and it is needed sometimes.On Nov 9, 2019, at 12:44 AM, Vojtěch Šmiro <vsmiro@seznam.cz <mailto:vsmiro@seznam.cz>> wrote:Hello.Hypra is great, I have it from May this year and it is super. It isn't good to fight together what is better than something. Every system is good for some actions, some is accessible, some is more or less accessible. Anyway, this is Debian list and here we would solve Debian problems, not fight what is better or worse. Linux accessibility is in bad crisis. If we don't become united, linux accessibility will end and many people, who aren't rich won't have any computer. Anybody can't have Mac. Mac cannot be legally installed on another computers than Apple computers.Best regards Vojta. Dne 08. 11. 19 v 18:15 Jean-Philippe MENGUAL napsal(a):Assuming that you still work at Hypra, I don't think that it isacceptable to use your debian.org <http://debian.org> e-mail to promote your work place.This work place works for Debian. So I dont see the problem. It works not-paid by Debian for Debian, so my job is a volunteer action for Debian. Thanks to Hypra, more than 500 new users use Debian. So yes, I created a project where I tried to fund a fulltime team to improve Debian, upstream and downstream, accessibility. I mix economical action and ethical action.Note that Debian developers can request for a certificate to show they are dev, there is not reason then to separate artificially 2 areas if they are so joint.Clearly, those e-mail should be removed because they fall under spam or promotional e-mails.Remove these about Mac and I will remove them. There is no reason to read "thanks to inform about Mac" and "Please dont talk here about Debian projects if they are supported by companies".Regards-- John Doe