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Re: TR: tasksel + gdm and accessibility issues for the d-i

Hi Mario:

On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 04:06:22PM +0100, Mario Lang wrote:
> Osvaldo La Rosa aka Aldo <info@brlspeak.net> writes:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Even if I do really appreciate all the efforts done for making the d-i 
> > one of the best in the world, I'm still frustrated to see some things that 
> > could/should be much better implemented in future releases:
> Frustrated?  I am sorry to hear this.
> > 1) one of it resides in tasksel:
> >    this moment in the installer process is underexploited in our VI
> >    issues:
> >    I see a [*]Desktop or [*]Standard item marked for installation;
> >    but I miss a [ ]Desktop Accessibility entry. (Note the blank in the [ ]
> >    because of course sighted people doesn't need to activate it...)
> We've had discussions about meta packages and/or tasksel integration
> in the past.  While I agree with you that some kind of easy package
> installation wrapper would be good to have, there are a few design problems
> with the simple approach you are suggesting:
> * Your sentences above already make it clear, you are refering to
>   assistive technologies for visually impaired people.  However, accessibility
>   is actually a much broader term.
>    Just to name an example, one view of a person with special needs might
>    be that "dasher" is the package they need to properly interact with
>    their computer.  Another group of people might need gok, yet another
>    might just need gnome-mag but without Orca, and so on.
>    I feel a simple "Accessible Desktop" item in tasksel is not
>    enough to solve the problem generically.

I understand. But it could be done with a submenu: if you mark the
[*]Accessiblity item, then tasksel should be able to ask more in an extra
question or so, just as Debian uses to do for lots of debconfs.

> * While it is a possible approach to have the installer explicitly
>   select packages for the users who are going to use the machine,
>   it is also obvious that an administrator might not know in advance
>   that a person with special needs is going to use this machine.

Thats why the "if [*] set on for marking that chapter, then tasksel provides
an extra choice/question so that the right choice may be made by the user
who's installing Debian Lenny/later.

>   If we think this through, we realize that what would be most desireable
>   is to have accessibility infrastructure installed by default on a 
>   default desktop, so that a person with special needs can just activate
>   it at login time if they need to.  I feel that this approach would be even
>   better than creating a large number of meta-packages for various
>   disability needs.

IMHO thats not much more difficult than creating the meta packs currently
proposed after marking them from within tasksel.

> > 2) why not using this on a more coherent/logical way:
> >    IMHO if there would be an entry in tasksel as described above, that
> >    should be used to increase accessibility if the user marks it for
> >    installation, especially with consequences like these one:
> >    a) at the login moment in gdm: by providing a signal or voice or any
> >       sound/message (cf. my previous mail about this issue) 
> Have you seen my reply to your mail regarding this issue?

Well I'm confused, you are talking about a bip whle I don't hear anything on
my laptop. 
> >    b) when marked for installation, that would have the consequence to
> >       run Orca by default from that point (gdm -> the beginning of the Gnome
> >       session). So if you're sighted and haven't marked the
> >      [*Desktop Accessibility item, then no problem, no login signal, no
> >      Orca.
> If a Linux machine were single-user by default, that would work.
> However, the orca startup setting is per-user, not per-system.

Well, what's the problem: the firstly created account may be considered as
the admin's personal account, so that will be the one who matches with my
approach. If more persons need the same feature, then the firstly created
user can do this as many times than needed since there is always an admin at
home, isn't it?

> > Isn't this a plan?
> >
> > IMHO this is a logical implementation to help with finishing the job: the d-i
> > is the only one who doesn't interfer with the needs of sighted persons,
> > while providing a good solution for VI people,
> > but having braille support at startup of the CD/DVD while
> > not having the possibility to enable gnome-orca from within tasksel,
> > sound a little bit absurd for me.
> Well, at least I, never use tasksel when installing a system.  I select
> the most basic configuration and then selectively install
> the packages I need.  

Probably 99% of lambda users do use the tools provided by the d-i, so
tasksel is part of it.

>Absurd, I think, is a little too strong a language,
> while I realize you are trying to push your cause.

Don't mind the terminology, this is due to my pore knowledge and practice of
the English language, nothing more nothing less. In FR or NL I will probably
use a much more correct term.
But IMHO the goal is to help increasing the easiness of installation for
blind people, and having the possibility to mark Orca for installation
inside tasksel is something I'm draming from, and I'm sure I'm not the only


Osvaldo La Rosa aka Aldo.


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