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Re: Bootstrapping sid (was m68k Debian lenny?)

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 06:02:52AM +0000, John Klos wrote:
> Hello,


No need to cc me on debian-68k messages.

> >When etch was released, the m68k part of it was released as etch-m68k,
> >with the name change coming at release time with no forewarning. A few
> >security updates were pushed, but it required modifying source package
> >versions to pull it off. Since then etch-m68k has been closed to updates.
> I've seen mention of etch-m68k stuff... Perhaps I was getting ahead
> of myself when I thought that I could bootstrap all the way to
> lenny.

Things went off the tracks before the actual lenny release, I believe.

> BTW - what's debian-50-m68k-NETINST-1_emile-1.iso? Was this just a
> prelimiary attempt at lenny? I downloaded it because on the mailing
> list someone says:
>     Meanwhile, if it boots, you should be able to install etch-m68k by
>     putting suite=etch-m68k on the kernel arg line.
> I thought at least I could use it to bootstrap etch, but if there's
> a better way, please let me know.

Bootstrapping etch-m68k is your best bet. I believe the lenny version of 
the d-i [0] or the daily builds [1] did a better job of installing etch-m68k
than the etch-m68k installer.

[0] http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
[1] http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/M68k

> >The biggest problem has been the lack of thread local storage (TLS) and
> >Native POSIX Thread Library (NPTL) support for m68k in the kernel and
> >glibc. This has lead to worsening problems as we had to suffer through
> >older versions of glibc and toolchain problems.
> >
> >We have patches in the current binutils. At least some of the linux
> >patches have recently gone upstream. I think the gcc patches are the last
> >bit to get cleaned up, but I'm not sure. So we're actually reasonably
> >close (in theory) to having this functional.
> >
> >Meanwhile, debian sid for m68k is now hosted on debian-ports.org and is in
> >serious hurt.
> >
> >I've been working on bootstrapping a sid chroot from etch-m68k where we
> >had a solid glibc and toolchain, but it's been slow going.
> Trying to wrap my head around all of this...

Me too.

> I'm reading through the mailing lists, particularly an exchange
> between yourself and Finn where you talk about bootstrapping sid,
> and I'm a little bit lost. I'm not familiar with the Debian
> development model. How do you maintain large sets of patches? Do you
> have a non-Debian CVS location? Or a publically accessible source
> location? I'm sure I'd get lost if I were to try to apply patches
> based on only what's in the mailing list...

Debian provides source and binary packages. The source packages often
include patches to the upstream source plus enough infrastructure to 
figure out dependencies and such needed for building the binaries.

Both source and binary packages are available from your local debian 

The mailing list patch notes tend to be what is needed above and beyond
what's already in the source package. We're trying to get things sufficiently
working so that they *can* be packaged.

> A lot of the references are lost on me - not sure what ftp-master is
> used for, what d-i is, what the archive is in the context of
> rebuilding everything, but I gather that's a reference to
> recompiling all the Debian packages?

ftp-master [2] is both the team of DD's that are responsible for the debian
archive and a sometime name of the upload host. d-i is debian-installer, the
software we use to bootstrap debian.

The source packages are downloaded onto architecture-specific hardware configured
to build the binary packages. The hardware is often referred to as a buildd since
it runs software called buildd (and sbuild). The resulting binary packages are 
uploaded to a debian archive or collection of software. Since m68k is no longer a
release architecture, our sid [3] and buildd infrastructure is now hsoted at 
debian-ports [4].

More about debian development can be found at [5], particularly [6].

[2] http://ftp-master.debian.org/
[3] http://www.debian.org/releases/
[4] http://www.debian-ports.org/
[5] http://www.debian.org/devel/
[6] http://www.debian.org/doc/developers-reference/

> Does there exist an available set of binaries of kernel 2.6.31, gcc
> 4.4.1, eglibc-2.10, all with the TLS and NPTL patches? If someone's

Not as far as I'm aware.

> successfully built these (I get the impression, but not clearly,
> that many of these issues were struggled through by you and Finn but
> the testsuites haven't been run yet), wouldn't it make sense to help
> others work on making sid happen by making a binary installation
> available as a starting place?

I've been working on bootstrapping a sid chroot from a good etch-m68k
chroot (and thus a good version of glibc). I'm currently tracking down
the gcc-4.4 dependencies.

> I gather that installing etch-m68k and bootstrapping TLS and NPTL
> patched gcc and kernel would be far from trivial...

It has been for me, but I'm working from the debian packages, which can
be trickier.

> Thanks. So if I'm reading this properly, all of the above updates
> need to hapoen at once to get around chicken-and-egg issues, then
> the updated system can be used as a basis for sid, and maybe
> there'll be an m68k squeeze since lenny basically never happened?

Yes, although my not-so-lofty goal is just to have a modern sid before 

> I'm trying to get all of this...

It's a lot to wrap your head around and a great learning environment.
Keeping prodding us if something is murky, maybe we can figure it out.



Stephen R. Marenka     If life's not fun, you're not doing it right!

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