Re: [Debconf-team] Formal meeting: Wednesday 18:30 UTC: Delegation for DebConf
Steve, Patty
I think you hit the nail on the head. TLDR: I'm not suited to this.
Not TLDR: Please let me indulge my reflections:
Patty's comment "you haven't really evaluated Debian, or DebConf," no,
I didn't. At all. I had no idea what I was getting into. What was I
thinking? I was happily minding my own business, knew nothing of
Debian or DebConf, but was dating someone who really likes Debian - to
the point that he has a personalised number plate saying 'Debian'.
That must be something to get involved with then! - that's what I was
thinking. Our mutual friend submitted the bid for DebConf to be hosted
in Cape Town, and I had some experience with events so I offered to
help. Good golly, I had no idea. Friendship, love, even, is not strong
enough to deal with this monster.
I also did not choose to "volunteer to lead the charge", I tried the
opposite, to hang back and only do the admin like venue scouting and
the contracts. But, I needed guidance, a leader, and no one stepped
up, and my personality is to step up when I see a void. Silly me. I
should have smiled and continued to mind my own business, perhaps with
some sideline cheering as a clueless spectator. If anything, that's
what mothers do? I will tell you though, gosh, that I learnt a lot,
both technical and about the nature of people. Thanks for that loss of
childlike innocence, but I really mean the gratitude. I have
discovered depths in the technical side of things and in how people
work that is immensely valuable. But after tabling the benefits and
the costs of being part of this mess, the first column is too empty,
and the second too big and mean, to justify carrying on.
I have no desire to be in a debate that's been raging for years, with
no solution in sight. No desire, at all.
Am I disrespectful? Certainly. Respect is earned and I have seen
preciously little to earn my respect. Have I worked to earn respect?
I'd like to think in the beginning I have. I showed up. I've tried to
mediate. I did grunt work. I tried to see all the opinions at play and
find a way to chisel them into workable solutions. But to no avail. So
now I'm exhausted, exasperated at trying to figure out what in this
hell is going on, and I just couldn't give a damn anymore. What's the
point of this conference? We don't even know. Clearly I am not suited
to this. If I was an adult, then I would have been more reserved with
my views, throw less tantrums, and/or thought about this more, and not
have gotten involved at all, or left earlier ... Hindsight is such a
simple, nice thing. I have tried every angle to see what is going on,
and what drives decisions, but I still cannot see how things work. You
are right that there is a mismatch between me and the group then. This
is easy to correct, as you suggest.
The reality you speak of is a twilight zone that exists in Debian. It
is not 'the reality'. And not a reality I am willing to accept. Again,
mismatch. We are on different planets.
As for how to deal with volunteers - I see my responsibility to honour
both volunteers with vocal opinions, and volunteers who do a lot of
work, quietly, in the background. It is disrespectful towards
volunteers who are working, to tolerate, indefinitely, volunteers who
are disruptive. That is the core of my frustration.
Is leaving not counter-productive? Is leaving not disloyal?
Unprofessional? Yes, yes, and, yes. As I told Tincho as well,
disruptive volunteers should not be asked or encouraged to leave, that
is scapegoating, but should be incorporated, used as a driving force
to inject energy. I guess that requires a functional team, somewhere.
A willingness to work together. A willingness to listen. Or something,
that I don't see here. I just don't see any other way, so add to my
disrespect, some counter-productivity, disloyalty, unprofessionalism.
Truth, to be seen as unprofessional hurts me most. Darn my thin skin.
Actually though, it would be more unprofessional to stay.
Am I trying to mother you? Certainly not, but perhaps it seems the
only approach left. If there is one image of myself I abhor though,
it's the 'mother' image. It's so devoid of personality, of identity.
Kudos to you for finding that button and pushing it. You may not be
children, but you behave as such. You don't take people's opinions
into account in a way to synthesize new approaches, instead, you
petulantly ignore the reality (my reality?) of needing to find
solutions and compromises, within a timeline, and rather stick to your
ideas, workable or not, neither do I see you try to illustrate these
ideas to make others understand and thus to start to share your views.
The image in my head is a toddler with their hands over their ears,
eyes closed, feet stomping, shouting 'Lalalalalala!!'. How does one
deal with that? I don't have time for that. Maybe we just work
differently.
I do disagree with your statement that I am "in no position to set a
deadline for decisions about how the DebConf team is organized within
Debian". This is affecting the organisation of the DebConf I was
involved in, so it affects me, which puts me in this position. But, I
will follow your advice and distance myself, as I do not want to be
associated with the way things are done here.
I, as a not-quite-an-adult, also have better things to do with my
time. Look at this, another half a day wasted on meta-talk. So it
pains me to say, with immediate effect, I'm out. I find rage-quitting
childish and irresponsible, and for this I am very sorry. I am so
sorry. If I was stronger, more ... competent ... I could face up to
you, call you out, fix this. But I am not smart or strong enough. All
I have is my blind disrespect and my passion.
Fortunately I'll probably still chat to members of the team, we're
friends, after all, and may (or, heck, may not) contribute through
them. I have tried my best to document everything I have done on the
wiki and on git, sothat a transition, if I left (which I have been
considering since my time in Germany, which was ... a bipolar
eye-opener) would be as easy as I could make it. But as of now, I
don't have to feel responsible. I don't have to care if things don't
get done. What bliss. What a relief to be rid of this burden.
All the best.
B
On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> wrote:
> Bernelle,
>
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 01:56:55PM +0200, Bernelle Verster wrote:
>> It goes without saying that I find this whole thing exhausting, and I
>> couldn't care how we solve this either way, as long as it goes away.
>> Hopefully, by the end of the meeting on Wednesday, there is a plan to
>> achieve this. My personal opinion is also, that these three proposals
>> are pretty much the same, and the only thing stopping them from
>> converging is ego. So swallow the ego - ALL of you, grow your
>> big-person panties, find a way to make all three proposals fit into
>> one, and by no later than Wednesday evening. And if I see one snarky
>> reply going on the defensive I'm sending this whole thread to spam and
>> you'll have to make do without me. I don't have time for this childish
>> shit.
>
> This is not the first time I've seen such insulting remarks from you on the
> mailing list. You seem to have lots of opinions about how DebConf business
> should be conducted, and that's fine. But you need to be able to express
> those opinions respectfully.
>
> You are in no position to set a deadline for decisions about how the DebConf
> team is organized within Debian. If you are unable to accept that without
> resorting to insults, then it would be rather a good idea if you *did*
> distance yourself, because you are doing quite a lot of harm to what little
> remains of the DebConf team.
>
> Debian Developers are not children, and you are not our mother; we are
> adults who have better things to do with our time than take verbal abuse
> from you or anyone else. If your goal is to drive people away from
> involvement in DebConf then you're doing a fine job of it. Otherwise, you
> need to stop. Now.
>
> --
> Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
> Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
> Ubuntu Developer http://www.debian.org/
> slangasek@ubuntu.com vorlon@debian.org
Reply to: