Re: [Debconf-team] Creating a debconf13 association
Hi Zack
Thanks for your input. I'll try to explain the reasons for our decision
in more detail.
On Sun, 6 May 2012 16:56:51 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli <leader@debian.org> wrote:
> On Sun, May 06, 2012 at 04:06:47PM +0200, Gaudenz Steinlin wrote:
> > We discussed the option to use the debian.ch association for DC13 and
> > the option to create a new association.
> <snip>
> > Any comments?
>
> Yep, on the specific point of "reusing" debian.ch vs establishing a new
> association. I've read the detailed argument of that choice but, to be
> fair, I don't understand from it why you prefer creating a new
> association.
>
> Some background on how that part of DebConf organization has happened in
> the past few years, from my (limited) POV as DPL:
>
> 1) if we already have a Debian trusted organization where DebConf
> happens -> great, nothing special to do in terms of money dealing
> 2) if not -> crap, we need to find /another/ local entity to deal with
> money and sign a deal with them, stating we trust them and they'll
> hold Debian money for the duration of DebConf
>
> (2) can be done and has been done in the past, but the advantage of not
> having to do that are nice to have. I think that this is an additional
> disadvantage of the option "create a new orga" that should be taken into
> account.
As far as I know the legal situation in Switzerland is quite unique as
the most common form of non profit association (german "Verein") is very
easy to set up. There is basically no bureaucracy involved (at least not
dealing with authorities). No registration is necessary and we don't
need any kind of acceptance by the authorities. This kind of association
is ubiquitous in Switzerland. Most larger events I know of (mostly from
Scouting) created their own association to separate the legal
responsibility from their "mother" organization and to minimize the legal
risks for the organizers and for the mother organization.
>
> A few other comments on your arguments:
>
> - you mentioned, in the option "reusing debian.ch", the need of changing
> current bylaws. Can you explain why that would be needed? Can't we
> simply rely on debian.ch without changing the bylaws? I have never
> read debian.ch bylaws, but organizing DebConf is pretty much within
> the realm of "Debian activities" that most Debian related
> organizations pursue
These are the main points that need changing or that are suboptimal for Debconf:
* No majority for the Debconf orgateam inside debian.ch (to have a
do-ocracy where those that do the work have the power to decide)
* Not really possible to have Debconf global team members as members of
debian.ch. At least we would have to stretch the membership rules for
this.
* We would need a debian.ch AGM as soon as possible to decide that
debian.ch wants to organize Debconf. The current bylaws don't grant
the board the right to decide this on it's own. This is strictly
speaking not a change to the bylaws but organizing an AGM is probably
not much less work as creating a new association.
* If we want to get tax-exepmtion we need to add some paragraphs about
the goals and what happens in case of closing debian.ch (money has to
go to a similar organisation).
>
> - I understand from your report that debian.ch does not have tax
> exemption status yet. This would clearly be a blocker in relying on
> debian.ch for DebConf13 money dealing. But if a Swiss organization has
> to get tax exemption status anyhow, "enjoying" the bureaucratic
> overhead of obtaining it, then it would be better to have debian.ch be
> that organization. That way the status could remain past DebConf13 and
> we can advertise debian.ch as one of the Debian trusted organization
> one could donate to, enjoying tax benefits.
We discussed the tax exemption issue at length and to our understanding
it's not that important. First of all debian.ch itself does not pay any
taxes as long as it does not make any surplus. Just donations received
in one year earmarked for a conference in the next year don't count as
surplus. So no problem here. For companies donations most probably can
just be seen as normal expenses (This still needs some investigation,
Raphael Walters last mail to the localteam list indicates that it might
not be as clear as we thought [1]). So they don't pay taxes on them as
well. This leaves donations from private persons which they can't deduct
from their income taxes as long as we don't have tax exempt status. But
we don't expect a lot of donations from private persons anyway.
One last consideration is VAT. But VAT in Switzerland is relatively low
(8%). If we have to pay VAT at all depends on our turnover. If it gets
over 100'000 CHF we probably will have to pay VAT but if donations
(which are excluded from VAT) count to this amount is not yet clear. It
may even be benefical to pay VAT because we probably will have to pay
more VAT on things we buy (which would be deductible by us) than we have
to add VAT to things we sell.
>
> From the way you put it, going debian.ch seems a better option for
> Debian, at least in the long run. And in the short run, the idea of
> having you people going through quite a bit of bureaucratic overhead,
> when you already have a local Debian-related organization, doesn't seem
> particularly useful.
>
> Maybe there are other arguments in favor of the "new organization"
> option that I'm missing?
I hope this clears things up a bit. The main thing probably is that most
non Swiss overestimate the bureaucracy involved in creating a new
association.
Best,
Gaudenz
[1]
http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20120506.142425.7f0309d9.en.html
(link to german law text is broken, but if you follow the other links
and change the language to german it works)
> Cheers.
> --
> Stefano Zacchiroli zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} . o .
> Maître de conférences ...... http://upsilon.cc/zack ...... . . o
> Debian Project Leader ....... @zack on identi.ca ....... o o o
> « the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »
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