Hi, so last night I couldn't fall asleep (and took some notes) and tonite I woke up after after a really short time of sleep and couldn't sleep more. So this document is the result of thinking last night (with taking notes..) after+about the meeting what rational thoughts I have for not being in favor of Sarajevo anymore. Until debconf6 I didn't _like_ the UK bid and was neutral about Sarajevo. Debconf6 showed the importance of the localteam and I became in favor of Edinburgh... 1. From many comments from stockholm (in RL (dc6), on the list and on IRC) I got the impression he is clearly biased in favor of Sarajevo (and I fail to understand why). So much, that it somewhat puts Sarajevo down for me. I'm aware that this is not a a completly rational argument, but I want to share this with you. And I have rational arguments for my impression of stockholm being biased: One example the "we need the dorm option" argument, because (stockholm basically says) "debconf will grow each year, this is good, and we need to pay for everything this is the (not really changeable, not really discussable) way of debconf." - Of course he can say and think what he wants, and of course his thoughts are the thoughts of someone who has been deeply involved in debconf the last years (from the beginning?), but I dont think his "forecast" is accurate (unlimited growth?) nor what I think is healthy for DebConf. I'm also quite disappointed that there is no costs comparison spreadsheet so far (even or if only with estimated numbers (you can easily put many calculations in one spreadsheet)) - if stockholm is the main organizer and says "only the dorm option is doable" I want to have this backed up by (comprehensible) numbers from him. Surely it also didnt help that we moved^wran from debconf6 to debconf7, instead of having a discussion about his leadership like many wanted. I've read a very good summary on this (the perceived problems with his leadership), which the authour didnt want to publish anymore after the delegation happened. And I heard many people from the team complain about this at or shortly after debconf6. (After saying this I should/want also state, that I do like, value and trust (in general, as said, I'm put off by his current behaviour) stockholm very much. As much as I am unhappy with some of his behaviour at dc6, I've been far more happy with him than unhappy ;) 2. Unclear flight costs for Sarajevo, while Edinburgh will certainly be cheaper for many europeans and us-americans. According to stockholms travel agent the difference in average will be 100-150 euros, if booked well in advance. While I do believe this is true for europeans (but not all of them can book well in advance, btw), I've only heard about much higher costs from outside europe. Also, people who will need visas might also not be able to book well in advance. 3. Unclear Visa situation. According to Sapphire (and contrary to official information on official bosnian websites), people can fly to Sarajevo and get a visa at the airport. If they dont want to risk wasting money and time by doing so and then not getting the visa, e.g. latin americans either need to travel to argentina to the bosnien embassy there or to the US (and probably need another visa for that, and of course this is also expensive.) http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20060619.110359.78423ced.en.html only states "we could request" (which might be denied), and there is no answer to the concern raised in http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20060627.151735.c5bfa627.en.html so far. http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20060618.002949.ac6946bf.en.html is where the visa thread started. (And where you can find visa information about both countries.) 4. The USA and Japan both warn there citizens about Bosnia (see http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20060617.011732.497e9cce.en.html). While I _do_ think this is mostly goverment propaganda, I fear this might influence the amount of hardware we will get borrowed. Or to put it different, I'm sure we will get more and better stuff lent in Edinburgh. (Similar for the network, it sounds like we can get decent network the Hotel Therme (people from localteam working at the hotels ISP), while it sounds like we can get very good network in Edinburgh (three independent ISPs want to sponsor debconf by now, maybe more, maybe gigabit). 5. From the venues itself, I think both options sound good. Edinburgh sounds nice with being in the city and Sarajevo sounds nice being locked up in a hotel outside the side :) Really. Both aspects (in the side or in a hotel more outside) have their pros and cons, but both (venues alone) sound equally good to me. I think I do want to state, that Scotland also sounds interesting to me. Sure, Sarajevo sounds even more interesting, but that doesn't mean Scotland is boring or like all the rest of Europe (haha! like Europe is the same everywhere. We are not there yet.) But being cultural interesting is only a minor aspect when choosing the place. And from the places itself, both sound good to me. 6. We don't know the Sarajevo localteam and they're hardly involved with Debian. If they fail, we can only say "oh no". If the Edinburgh team fails, noone will want to co-maintain packages with them anymore :) Also, from what I've seen in the last three month, I'm far more impressed with the work of the EDI team, both technically and socially. 7. Some women have raised concerns about Sarajevo and the localteams attitude has mostly been to deny these concerns instead of addressing them. This is like being told the water in Mexico is drinkable instead of being able to make an informed deciscion. 8. While I agree (and very much like) that DebConf is also about spreading the ideas of free software, I do think DebConf is mostly an event to improve and strenghten Debian, both socially and technologically. And... 9. after all the stress at debconf6, I want to have a "good (as in productive) and easy (as in fun)" debconf this time for sure. I've seen far more indications that Edinburgh is a good choice for this than Sarajevo. regards, Holger, who will now enjoy breakfast... ;)
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