Re: Why no /CD/ link on / ?!
On Sat, Mar 22, 2003 at 11:46:26PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote:
> Yeah, we're all out to get you.
>
> Now that we have that out of the way, let me just say that the /CD/ page
> was reportedly too crowded and too out of sync with the rest of the web
> site, so I wrote /distrib/cd to complement the main page and the
> /distrib/ page.
>
> In fact, I purposely didn't touch /CD/ because I was afraid you'd throw a
> hissy fit if I did!
Hmm, now I'm surprised. I wasn't aware that you had such a strong dislike
against the current /CD/. You know, you could have said something!
Anyway, surely doing the change "secretly" would only delay my "hissy fit",
so what did it buy you? :)
> the /CD/ page was reportedly too crowded
I haven't seen any of these reports, were they sent to webmaster@ ?
> and too out of sync with the rest of the web site
If you mean the different page design, we can talk about that. (Except I'd
really love to keep that png showing the "Debian CD"...)
Anyway, I'm now *not* going to throw up my hands in disgust and say "I'm
out" - in the interest of a nicely navigatable website, we should solve
this issue one way or another, the current structure with two "main" CD
pages is just ridiculous IMHO.
Coming up with a sane site design might involve further fits on my part -
please bear with me. ;-/
> > PS: I only noticed this after getting a mail from a frustrated CD
> > downloader who complained about the site structure.
>
> Please forward that mail. By the looks of it, they must be on some
> serious crack.
Well, I didn't get an answer when I asked for permission to forward it to
this list, but I hope it's OK if I don't mention the name or email.
The point that I found interesting/strange WRT site structure was that he
apparently kept "going in loops" through the various pages, unsure whether
there wasn't another CD-related page somewhere.
Some jigdo-specific points snipped for brevity:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[First mail:]
I ran your program by ignoring the misleading directions of some
sites, and was able to finally use a little trial and error to get it
to connect to the server for the jigdo information. It first needs the
complete URL of the file one wishes to use. This is not the template
file, although some indicate that this is used by your program. For
instance, the URL is
http://us.cdimage.debian.org/jigdo-area/3.0_r1/jigdo/i386/woody-i386-1.jigdo
for the first Debian iso image and not
http://us.cdimage.debian.org/jigdo-area/3.0_r1/jigdo/i386/ which is
the directory where they exist.
[snip problems with jigdo-lite's questions]
[Second mail:]
First of all, let me tell you what I did. I'm thinking that it would
appear that I should wait for the [jigdo] GUI when it comes out. I must
have missed the part about the jigdo-easy. I went ahead and downloaded
Caldera's OpenLinux Workstation product to compare with the Mandrake I've
already installed while I was waiting for your solution. Debian should
make the standard ISO available even if slow because it would be better
than nothing.
With regard to the web site:
With all that said, the first concrete recommendation would be to make
the web pages clearer to understand. With that intent, perhaps you
could list the different versions which are available with a simple
description of each one. I suggest one page that scrolls a long way
down (never side to side) with the version as the heading or title and
a following paragraph rather than a link for each one to another page.
Right next to each heading or title, there should be a link for each
one to take the visitor to the download page for just that version
only. I would stay with http rather than ftp simply to avoid
confusion. The cryptic file names and disassociated file groups don't
serve the visitor very well.
It is very confusing to see template and jigdo files types when people
are familiar with seeing a single zip or exe or iso for what they
want. Hide the rest from them. When they are done with one CD image,
they can go back and get the next one.
I just went to the web site as you linked it in this mail. [I had mailed
him a link to /CD/... ;-] It is different than the route I took. I have
since found a better one, which shows how easily a visitor gets mislead by
complex pages. I will list the various (too many) steps here:
http://www.debian.org/ > What is Debian > Read more... > How do I get
Debian > Our page about getting Debian > Make a CD set yourself (At this
point is where the real problems start.) > Official CD images of the
"stable" release - see below > United States: mirror.cs.wisc.edu: FTP HTTP
(I guessed that this was the Wisconsin university site, but they should be
labeled) > And here it doesn't matter if one chooses the FTP or HTTP link
because the only difference is the size of the icons and type. Neither is
any good since no directions about what to download are shown.
[wisc.edu is listed as CD mirror but only has the .jigdos. Doh.]
Since that is a dead end, let's try again from:
make a CD set yourself > Assemble images using jigdo: > Available images
USA mirror > i386/ (I knew enough to guess at this, but most wouldn't) >
Opps, dead in the water again.
Now let's try from your site (but I only know to get there from your link
here):
Well actually, this just gets us back into the loops above.
(By the way, I also had a problem with the jigdo site itself. I had to use
IE to get it to work without freezing my computer, so I must assume that it
is not designed to Internet standards. Big bummer.)
At the debian.org home page, there should be a download link. That link
should have a choice of "what to choose" (see my comments above) and a link
to each version, package, bundle or whatever. The next should be to choose
"this one first" and "then this one second", etc.. I can't imagine anyone
wanting to see any sort of directory and file listings at all. That's like
two steps from the home page, instead of seven or eight that most people
will find. That has got to make your job far easier than the alternative,
so its win/win.
With regard to jigdo:
[snip valid points...]
The biggest problem on the Internet are busy web sites that don't give the
simple info people are trying to find. Number one is always the address,
phone numbers, fax, email and any other contact information right there on
the home page. They don't want forms, or frames, or big graphics or music
or java scripts or cookies or programming targeted at IE or any other junk
that slows things down or inhibits ease of use.
You should understand that the user doesn't even need to know about ISO
files. The point is that they should go to a link for the file they want
based on a sentence or paragraph description. For instance, "Do you want
to create your own CD images?, then select this link". At that page it
would say, "Download number one, then download number two, and only number
three if you want the supplemental CD", or words to that effect.
Encouraging the use of jigdo must fit within the confines of these
methodologies. One cannot make its use more difficult than necessary and
expect that people will want to use it. Also, don't forget that most of
your visitors will be Windows users and they expect a certain methodology.
[...]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheers,
Richard
--
__ _
|_) /| Richard Atterer | CS student at the Technische | GnuPG key:
| \/¯| http://atterer.net | Universität München, Germany | 0x888354F7
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