Re: Debian menus policy
Brian Mays wrote:
>
> Erik Steffl wrote:
>
> > > click on the root window is different from dragging on root
> > > window.
>
> crdic@yahoo.com (Craig Dickson) replied:
>
> > But click and drag are closely related operations. It's not a good
> > idea to have a click pop up a menu when you have something completely
> > different linked to dragging with the same button.
>
> Indeed. Consider Windowmaker. Usually, left-click-and-drag selects a
> region (windows inside the selection, etc.); however, left click alone
> clears the previous selection. I'd hate to lose this simply because
> someone thinks that a standard "click and get menu" is a good idea.
you would not loose it, the left click on root window is not used in
window maker at all.
as far as difference between clicking and dragging (raised in another
post): you can find many situations where click and drag results in very
different action:
ms win: right click on desktop brings up menu, right drag selects a
region (icons within rectangle). note that it's exactly the same
behaviour window maker would get with proposed left click = menu.
other, more loosely related, examples are e.g. items in container
(window) = click or double click usually selects/activates/changes
state, drag usually moves them.
some WMs: click on borders/title does rise/lower, drag does
resize/move.
etc...
I don't think any of the above is problem (generally, is there anybody
who has problems with any/all of the above (as far as mixing of
drag&click goes, not unrelated problems)) so I don't see why it
shouldn't be used for window maker...
note that click when there is active selection generally cancels
selection, instead of doing normal click operation. that's widely used
in many programs/environments, I don't see why it would be problem for
window maker users (I guess you can always customize it, maybe even
using debconf when you install software (then it's not on per user basis
though))
> > I still think the middle button is a better choice; it's less likely
> > to conflict with other things.
>
> Actually, I think that we should stick to the traditional behavior
> of each particular window manager as much as possible. That is, if
but not more. a little bit of consistency wouldn't hurt. specially
given fairly useless default config that some WMs have now. see examples
below.
> I'm accustomed to window manager xyz behaving in a particular way by
> default on other Unix-like systems (including other Linux systems,
> like RedHat), this should not change simply because I'm using a Debian
> system. Otherwise, I would consider Debian to be a rather obnoxious
> distribution in the way that they do things.
left click bringing up the main menu (debian menu or menu that
includes debian menu) is most common standard already and it would not
hurt most of the WMs if added. window maker is one of the few ones that
would be somehow affected (but IMO not for worse, see above). here's
what I've found out checking the WMs I currently have installed )debian
menu means menu created by menu package or menu that contains this
menu):
9wm: left click = nothing (right click = win ops menu + xterm) (no way
out!)
afterstep: left click = debian menu
blackbox: right click = debian menu (left click = nothing)
ctwm: left click = debian menu (WM menu missing!)
enlightenment: middle click = debian menu (left click = E menu)
fvwm: left click = debian menu
gwm: left click = nothing (right click some menu) (no debian menu)
icewm: right click debian menu (left click windowlist) (missing menu
items!)
kde: left click = app menu (debian menus mixed in) (no way out!)
sawfish: middle click = debian menu (left click nothing?)
scwm: dies
twm: left click = debian menu (WM menu missing!)
vtwm: left click = debian menu (WM menu missing!)
window maker: right click = debian menu (left click = select)
XFwm/XFce: no debian menu (left click = some menu)(no way out!)
aewm: no menu at all (no way out!)
lwm: no menu at all (no way out!)
qvwm: win95 like toolbar, start menu = debian menu (left click =
nothing)
uwm: left click = uwm minimal menu (right click = debian menu) (WM menu
missing!)
wm2: left click = 'new' menu (no way out!)
left click: 6
right click: 3
middle click: 2
other method: 1
no: 6
there might be some exceptions - e.g. qvwm mimics ms win environment
(even though it wouldn't hurt, left click does nothing right now), or
enlightenment that has (probably) well known menu from other distros
could be left alone (you get menu containing debian menu by middle
clicking).
these are basically all WMs that were available last time I tried WMs
(year or two ago), there are some new ones available, anybody cares to
fill in the table above?
notes:
scwm problem:
ERROR: In procedure primitive-load-path:
ERROR: Unable to find file "ice-9/boot-9.scm" in load path
uwm minimal menu:
only two item: quite & restart which is often in debian menu anyway)
uwm & missing WM menu:
there is menu restart iwm, with item restart another wm but there
is only one program there and its xterm, it gets started instead of
WM and you can start another fvwm ('cause now the windows are unmanaged)
wm2 'new' menu:
menu with one item saying 'new', starts xterm
some WMs have no menu (or no significant menu), I guess user can use
standalone program then (deskmenu)
of course, the ones that do not allow one to change to another WM
should be forced to spend time in ms win environment (where such
behaviour is kinda natural). that might teach them. not sure what about
the authors. perhpas reminding them that the linux (unix) environment is
about user having control over environment. they should be at least
marked in menu so that one does not accidentally enter them
(specifically the ones that are basically unusable (I admit they might
be good for some special cases))
what about forcing them to release control by writing wrapper script
that would ask user (when WM exits) whether one wants to exit X or start
another WM? should be pretty simpe (one should be able to suppress the
question, or the question would only be brought up when user holds shift
or something like that so that it does not get in the way)
> If you would like to improve and standardize things, why don't you work
> to make the little menu key that comes on most PCs these days pull
> up the standard Debian menu? Certainly, this is one behavior that I
...
good idea.
erik
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