Re: Helix debian packages
On Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:39:05PM -0400, James LewisMoss wrote:
> Joseph> Yes, the Helix default GTK settings are usable by me. They
> Joseph> use a darker grey and it doesn't give me a nasty headache
> Joseph> like Debian's do. Granted, that's a very minor thing, but
> Joseph> it's a difference.
>
> OK got one. Filed a bug report against the debian package or just
> complained here?
Asked on irc about it. Was told just to change the settings if I didn't
like them. I did (and I would have anyway), but it's still a matter of
first impressions.
> Joseph> Generally, the default gnome-session under Helix is just
> Joseph> better. Perhaps that's subjective, but a lot of people seem
> Joseph> to agree.
>
> Again so vague as to be useless. in all these deficiencies do you
> report bugs?
I would if I could come up with a specific package to file a bug against.
I'll be putting Debian Gnome on the laptop for testing. I'll be using it
side-by-side with my home workstation running Helix. Differences will be
easier to spot then.
> Joseph> which you seem to be ignoring, is that there's no reason for
> Joseph> there to be a difference between Helix and Debian Gnome. As
>
> Sure there is.
> 1) Peter can't, because of time constraints, get his, helix's,
> packages into debian.
> 2) I'm not going to become a proxy for the helix packages. If you are
> in the mood. You can take over my gnome packages and become the
> proxy for them. Go ahead.
I'm not after someone to proxy the uploads for Peter. I'm after a more
cooperative effort between Peter and the various Debian Gnome developers
to help make having seperate Debian and Helix packages for unstable
unnecessary. That's why I suggested CVS earlier - it seems like a good
solution to let more than one person work on a package at the same time
and that way there would be no need of a fork in development or time taken
to re-merge changes all the time.
> 3) I don't have enough time to follow all the changes to the helix
> packages. Why don't you report bugs when you see a significant
> difference?
I do not, at this time, use the packages that you maintain. But I'm
likely to try the PIM at least since I need such an animal. I'll let you
know if I find anything important.
> Joseph> It seems reasonable to fold the Helix changes into Debian.
> Joseph> If time is the problem, I am sure there are people willing to
> Joseph> help. I'm willing to, where time permits.
>
> Ok then. Report bugs and send patches.
That's exactly what I hope to avoid. Constant merging of changes is very
frustrating and can be completely automated.
> Joseph> I haven't got a good place to host the CVS, but I'm willing
> Joseph> to help set it up if that's what's needed. It's not hard,
> Joseph> but it won't work unless the Debian Gnome maintainers want it
> Joseph> to work. Based on a lot of what I'm reading, I suspect John
> Joseph> Goerzen has a better chance of convincing people non-free
> Joseph> should be purged from Debian than I've got of convincing the
> Joseph> people packaging Gnome in Debian that Helix changes should be
> Joseph> folded in to the Debian packages.
>
> Ah. More Bull Crap. My argument has no basis in reality so let's
> insult the people I'm arguing with! Has anyone said "No, that
> specific Helix change you brought up sucks and I'm not doing it" to
> you yet? Were their reasons good?
No - just a lot of Debian's greatest strength and weakness: one package,
one maintainer. Strength because the people maintaining packages
frequently know how to maintain their package best. Weakness because
there is no requirement express or implied that they cooperate with anyone
else inside or outside the project in doing so.
I've seen a lot of people saying that their packages are THEIRS, and they
don't want anyone from Helix mucking around with their packages. In at
least some cases, there are likely good reasons for this. But nobody is
under any obligation to share them. At least some of the people in
question I believe have little more reason to object than that it affects
the sovereign control of their packages or even worse, that Helix is a
commercial entity.
Not having time is a good reason. Not liking one of the changes is
arguably a good reason. But rejecting good code and positive effort
because of commercial involvement as some think we should? I remember
slink.5 a little too well to let that rest easy. It was rejected
supposedly because potato was just around the corner, but it was clear
that it wasn't wanted primarily because Debian hadn't done things that way
before and several outspoken people felt that Debian shouldn't change what
it did just because some company wanted us to do something we weren't
doing.
Turns out that it was done anyway without Debian's help or involvement,
and the results were simply available to a much smaller audience. The
offer to share the results of the work was just one person - a Debian
developer - trying to make useful work available to the project. I didn't
have slink.5 when I needed to install a machine with a hard drive too big
for slink to handle. This was October. Potato wasn't released until
nearly 10 months later.
Now here we have Helix. Another company trying to do something nifty
whose work is available to us. There may be some good reasons to thank
them politely and move along and there certainly are some good reasons IMO
to include what they've done. A lot of people seem to feel like I do
based on much of what I've read up until this discussion. Unfortunately,
it seems that the people who need to feel that way for it to matter don't.
I don't want to sit here arguing about this. I want the best software in
Debian. At the moment, Helix Gnome is giving Debian Gnome a serious run
for its money in a lot of ways. Little things mostly, with a few bigger
things such as npstream version differences. I don't see why this is a
bad thing to want.
> Joseph> I use them at work. At home, I use Helix. As soon as I
> Joseph> installed Debian Gnome at work, an old and fixed bug in the
> Joseph> file dialog in XMMS reappeared, that was the very first thing
> Joseph> I noticed different. Minor, but annoying enough that the
> Joseph> first time I enqueued a file, I wished I had the Helix
> Joseph> version installed.
>
> Ah. Just checked the bug reports for xmms. Didn't see your bug
> report. Guess complaining loudly on a public mailing list is easier
> than looking at what helix did to fix the problem and reporting a bug
> with a patch on the debian package.
The fix in that case?
* New upstream version
The Debian maintainer knows of the bug already.
--
Joseph Carter <knghtbrd@debian.org> GnuPG key 1024D/DCF9DAB3
Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org/) 20F6 2261 F185 7A3E 79FC
The QuakeForge Project (http://quakeforge.net/) 44F9 8FF7 D7A3 DCF9 DAB3
<Joy> Flinny: black crontab magic kinda stuff :)
<knghtbrd> Joy: does that mean people get to dance naked around bonfires
chanting strange things and waving their arms about in a silly
manner?
<rcw> knghtbrd: what do you *think* people do at novare?
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