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Re: [draft] Draft text on Init Systems GR



On Sat, Nov 09, 2019 at 06:08:54PM +0100, Simon Richter wrote:
> (Option 1.1.1)
> 
> Automated variant transitions shall be supported.
> 
> [Rationale: moving from systemd to sysvinit is currently an involved manual
> process, so unavailable to anyone not already skilled in Unix
> administration, creating an artificial barrier.]

please clarify what you mean by this. I understand that you claim that
"apt-get install -y sysvinit-core" is hard (I disagree somewhat, but I
also think that those for this is hard shouldn't care) but anyway, what
do you envision how 'automated variant transitions' should be done? A
click in some UI?

(This is a serious question and the reason i'm sending this mail. I'm
really curious as I think
https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Installing_without_systemd is pretty
clear and easy.)

> (Option 2.2.1)
> Core system components are excluded from backports, and backported packages
> need to be compatible with the interfaces provided by the stable release.

wow. I thought backports are not part of stable/optional anyway... and then, as
pointed out before, we have versioned depends.
 
> Do we (actively) support
> 
>  - GNOME desktop users
>  - KDE desktop users
>  - other (non-FDO?) desktop users
>  - standalone servers
>  - servers in a group
>  - non-systemd (Docker, OpenVZ) container installations
>  - externally coordinated (Kubernetes, ...) installations
>  - systemd container installations (i.e. containers with access to outside
>    systemd)
>  - embedded device builders
>  - mixed systems (e.g. desktops with virtual machines or laptops running a
>    database server for some application)
>  - derived distributions
>  - throwaway chroots for compiling
>  - non-Linux kernels
>  - non-PC architectures
 
some parts of 'we' support a sub-set of these, yes.

I'm glad you brought it up to this extreme. Maybe in slightly crazy
words: yes, Debian supports smokers and non-smokers. Sometimes (often)
not in the same place (as eg non-smokers are usually (and rightfully)
unhappy about smoke), but still, Debian has a place^w^wplaces for both.
As such, a place where (non-)smokers can hang out, is neither RC nor
non-RC, we will just need to learn with the fact that we welcome
everyone, while we are not able to welcome everyone at the same place,
or pace, always.

(and please dont read too much into this analogy. I'm neither saying
systemd||sysv is like (non-)smoking. Rather I'd like us to think 
about how to integrate non-compatible things into one thing, Debian.)

;tl;dr: policy *should*, but not must. recommendations.


-- 
cheers,
	Holger

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               holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
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