On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 05:50:47PM +0100, Guillem Jover wrote: > On Sat, 2014-01-25 at 17:06:45 +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote: [...] > > So, let me propose the following amendment, then: > > > > ----- > > If this option wins, the project secretary, in the presence of at least > > two other Debian Developers, will roll a dice. If the dice comes at rest > > with 1 or 2 facing up, systemd will become the default init system for > > Debian. If the dice comes at rest with 3 or 4 facing up, upstart will > > become the default init system for Debian. If the dice comes at rest > > with 5 or 6 facing up, openrc will become the default init system for > > Debian. > > ----- > > > > I am looking for seconds. And no, that's not a joke; at this stage the > > debate is essentially deadlocked, and I am doubtful that the debate will > > *ever* reach a conclusion which will be the best on a technical and/or > > political level. All available options feature some things that the > > others don't, all have downsides, and none of the available options will > > ever be a perfect solution. We could discuss this ad infinitum and end > > up with a non-solution, or we could just bite the bullet and make a > > decision. > > > > At this point, I think any decision is better than no decision, even if > > that "decision" is the throw of a dice. > > Ok, given what you mentioned above, your preference is not easily > represented with the current GR draft, and I don't think this > amendment makes much sense (at least to me). Well, that's of course your prerogative, but the fact that you came up with a long list of options doesn't negate my right to attempt to add another option, even if you think it doesn't belong there. > You want a change, but don't care which; in which case I think it > would be more appropriate to let the people who care decide, as you > pointed out. That would of course be the best option, and I would be happy if we were to reach that. > I could see a decision by dice, being questioned as non-transparent, > etc. Hence the bit about "two other DDs need to be present". I suppose we could possibly require a video recording. Alternatively, we could choose some factoid about the vote itself; like "number of votes received modulo 3 decides the winner", or "(all timestamps on all mails sent and received by devotee during the course of this vote represented in unix epoch, added together), modulo 3 decides the winner", or some other variation on that theme. The point is to essentially pull a decision out of thin air if all other attempts to make a decision failed. We need a decision. I don't care what that decision is, but we need one. Since a few months, this endless "debate" has reached the point where every thread on every mailinglist, given enough time, eventually turns into yet another instance of the init system "debate". This is unhealthy for our community and needs to stop. > But could see an option that essentially says (with better > wording and all that): > > * Switch the init system to something else than sysvinit + sysv-rc. > - a decision for a new init system needs to be made now, letting this > undecided will keep causing frustration and project tension. > - the init system chosen will be the one the project at large has > a preference on, by selecting the winning option among options C-G. > > If something along those lines satisfies you, I'm happy to include a > polished version in the GR draft. That would introduce interdependencies between votes, which has a serious risk of skewing the result (e.g., people would feel more compelled to rank one option lower, so that the chance of it winning indirectly through this option gets smaller; that would mean they wouldn't be expressing their actual opinion). I don't think that's a good idea. -- This end should point toward the ground if you want to go to space. If it starts pointing toward space you are having a bad problem and you will not go to space today. -- http://xkcd.com/1133/
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